Pink Deutsches Jungvolk sleeve rune?

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Hi Gents,

may I ask a quick question: I have found this rune for sale on the www. It doesn't seem to be a usual red rune but somewhat pink. Any idea what it is? Just a colour variation or indeed something special?

Rgds

Daniel

Admin Edit: the regulation for this particular type of DJ rune patch is discussed HERE

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Hello
This is a normal Siegrune .... lying too long in the sun ......
But 85 € is too expensive ......
Brian mfg
 
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Hello,
If I remember well, a DJ Rune did exist for staff members.
Best regards
 
... lying too long in the sun ...

Hi,

well, if it would been faded by the sun, how can it bleach on the reverse side as well? Naval (or MHJ) cap tallies, being displayed in a picture frame over the last decades, are only bleached on the obverse, very very minorly on reverse. However the grade of fading, there should be a difference.
What, on the other hand would support your opinion Brian: at so called "Schiffsjungen" tallies from the Imperial German Navy (where the lettering is red as well) occasional the lettering changes to pink as well.

So which Sigrune patches were worn above Oberbann level? The Gebietsführer- and Obergebietsführer Sigrune patch is pink as well, isn't it?

Rgds

Daniel
 
Hello,
... and staff members are not only staff officers. There are also other ranks, NCOs, field officers and in this case with a pink DJ Rune. I'm sure that I read that somewhere. :frusty:
Best regards
 
Hi Fernand and Darin,

many thanks for your input. It seems a bit odd to me as well to have a pink rune just for the sake of colour variation or being faded by the sun - then we would see more of them. Anyway, I just bought it and will see what the postman brings. I will post a picture and then we can continue this thread if there's necessity.

Thanks again and rgds

Daniel
 
I checked some of may material, but could not find a pinkish patch for staff.
What was said in the Verordnungsblatt from April 7, 1934 about staffs was:
for boys and Jungvolk-leaders in a staff for an Oberbann, Gebiet and Obergebiet
DJ arm-patches (Armscheiben) are being introduced, having a crimson edge
(karmesinroter Umrandung). So it is the edge that is pinkish-red and not the
entire inner field. If I do find more then I will let you know!
 
Hello Daniel,

I think that this illustration will help you and will confirm you its existence....!

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Best regards
Eric
 

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Hi Eric,

many thanks. This helps a lot indeed, as you probably know I have not much of a clue about them ...

May I ask you to post also the page where the meaning of all these is explained? Or is this the Brian Davis reference book, which Darin spoke about in post #6?

Thanks again and regards

Daniel
 
Hi Daniel,
yes it is the Brian Davis reference book and I am very glad that this rune is in your collection.
Best regards
Eric
 
according to the colored plates from the Organisationsbuch, for example 1936 and 1937
the shown cloth patch could be in use by a Jungbannführer in the staff for a Gebiet. The
text describes the color to be karmesin (crimson). But: the embroidery should be done
in silver (aluminum)
and not in white cloth. An enlisted rank's version, so with white
embroidery or woven, was not mentioned.

If karmesin can have that pinkish or lilac color-shade is not known to me. In the SA it
is possible, but then the shade is darker and does not tend to light. According dictionaries
karmesin in fact is a brighter red (english = crimson); karmin (english = carmine) is a red
with a more wine-red shade.
Colors can vary quite. This I have learned with an excursion where the variations in pink
were shown: this shaded from very light pink, up to red, as well as to lilac. The color
differences are at most when the material is velvet or felt!
 
Hello Wim,

sorry but I am not agree with you. The colored plates from the Organisationsbuch, 1936 and 1937 are good with the shown cloth patchs .
In Germany, karmesin is not brighter red or lilac red but in fact fushia pink.
This color has been used with all german Staff as SA , HJ etc.
I had already noticed this error in books published recently.
Here is an example: the "Oberbannführer in Gebietsstab" shoulder boards.
In the book of Angolia for example, we can read "carmine" as color for this shoulder boards.
What do you think about it ?.The shade of color is exactly the same that the rune
Best regards
Eric
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I know what color Karmesin is in Germany. You only have to look in vol. 3 from the headgear
series where I show various SA headgear from staff (pages 580). You also can have a look
in my "handbook" where I clearly show the difference between red, crimson and pink pipings
on page 284, upper photograph.
The patch where this thread started with is much lighter of color. Maybe this is caused by the
light when photographing??
 
no Wim, it is not the case. This color is much more darkened .The same color was been used by the German imperial army , Ulan Régiment nr 14.
 
One can dispute colors for hours.
For the SA and HJ the Amann color-charts were in use, according the manufacturing-regulations for the Reichszeugmeisterei:
Bright red (Hochrot, which is the color of Indanthrenscharlach) was indicated as nr. 503 and crimson (Karmesin, which is a mix from
Indanthrenrot and Indanthrenbrillantrosa) as nr. 621. During the procedure it was allowed to have a color-difference (Farbabweichung)
of 10%, according the structures from the Reichszeugmeisterei. 10% lighter was possible and allowed, but also 10% darker, which means
a difference of 20%. Due to the use of other (different) materials another 5% was allowed.

When you compare colors with this in mind then Karmesin (crimson) and Karmin (carmine) can have a nearly same shade, occasionally
even tend to pink or lilac. Occasionally one cannot even establish this difference with the naked eye. Not every toning bath was the same
and often for this reason materials were not accepted.
I do include three charts of red/reddish/pinkish colors from the Amann color-charts. This are the differences that could be caused! Bright
red (503) is from the first strip the middle red color; crimson (621) is the middle one from the third strip! Note that with the scanning again
color-differences can be caused!

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there is no problem and I understand what you mean.
It would be a great pleasure to meet you next time in Kassel to discuss and compare our advice....:yo:
 
Hello

I found this on the Preisliste 1936 edition :

DJ Armscheiben weiss/hochrot, bis einschl. Stammführer
DJ Armscheiben weiss/karmesinrot, für Stabsmitglieder bis einschl. Stammführer

and this example (Garry collection)

Don't know if I am helpful :blushing:

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.... peace, peace, peace. I was not intending to call up for WW4 ... Let me get home and I will post a detailed scan and let's continue then if needed.

Thanks for your research on this, Lauri. This looks like more or less my colour variation, just the embroidery is white (instead of Gary's in silver) and the circle is missing of course.

Let's enjoy New Year's celebrations and I will post the rune soon after.

Thanks and regards

Daniel
 
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