Let's debate Landjahr triangles

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ref the black LANDJAHR triangle recently sold in Germany one thing that stands out to me is the lettering is white which was reserved for BDM , taking into account the green triangle was white lettering.
My point is could this triangle have been meant for the BDM. SPEAK OUT :w00t:

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I suppose it is possible. I've not seen a yellow lettering example of this early style triangle. The green was worn by both genders, there was no colored lettering to seperate male from female. The traditions stripe for the green Landjahr is the same color also for both genders like the lettering. I don't have the regulations for the earlier triangle to reference from, if there were even regualtions for it. The black Landjahr triangle did exist, that I am confident of. I had a discussion with Jeff Hammond regarding unusual triangles once and this is what he wrote me about the black Landjahr triangle.

"Thank you for sending the image of that quite unusual youth triangle. My initial reaction is that such a thing probably is not original, but I applied that test to one shoulder triangle and later found out that I missed out on an extremely rare triangle. One of my collector friends had gotten a Landjahr triangle (the typical green type), and he found that it had been sewn on top of a black Landjahr triangle. I bought the black triangle from him, but when I looked at it, I thought that it just couldn’t be right. For one thing the style of the lettering was different. I sent it back and got my money back. Well many years later I found out that the back Landjahr triangles with a different style of lettering were used for a short time. So that’s what I get for being overly skeptical. I missed out on an original triangle of a type that I will probably never see again."
 
yes very interesting one must keep a very open mind with most of this TR stuff there is so much we do not know and also for every regulation quoted there are three pictures around showing it being ignored or broken

PAUL
 
yes very interesting one must keep a very open mind with most of this TR stuff there is so much we do not know and also for every regulation quoted there are three pictures around showing it being ignored or broken

PAUL

yes Paul i agree
Hans
 
especially when kids are involved, i think its this area that most of the rules where broken with parents sometimes using the cost effective way of doing things even if it ended in a few corners being cut
 
yes very interesting one must keep a very open mind with most of this TR stuff there is so much we do not know and also for every regulation quoted there are three pictures around showing it being ignored or broken

PAUL
Yes, that is a valid point but I will take a regulation over speculation any day :) It's great hypothesising about whether an item is real or not but more often than not it will be the surfacing of a regulation or a period document or catalogue which will eventually seal the deal. I strongly suspect that the regulations will solve this one too. If we take the 'DJ' knife as an example I would love to see a photograph of one being worn by a DJ boy but if one does surface it will prove only that he is wearing a knife he shouldn't be wearing because the regulations clearly state that there was only one knife.

The Landjahr was instituted in 1934 and I know that W Saris has a lot of RJF regulations which pre-date this point and I'm willing to bet that he already knows the answer to the question of whether these black ones were made officially for boys and girls.

I do know that he thinks that these black Landjahr were worn for a short period and possibly in order to avoid any potential confusion with the Oberbann colours still being used at the time.

The Landjahr was first introduced in Prussia on 29.3.1934 and was extended thereafter to cover further areas. The Oberbanne were finally removed as a structure at the end of 1935 (this took longer than expected) and the specialist colours were officially introduced in early 1936 although they had been announced earlier so these black triangles would have had a short life. Both boys and girls were enrolled on the Landjahr from the beginning so the idea of a black/silver for girls and a black/gold for boys for this interim period could be a theory worth pursuing but as I say, I suspect that Saris will answer this in his book.

Edit: Verordnunsblatt der RJF 141 19.5.1934 states that the initial issue of the triangles had "Landjahr" in yellow stitching for males and and the same in white for girls.

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Early style triangle Landjahr

I suppose it is possible. I've not seen a yellow lettering example of this early style triangle. The green was worn by both genders, there was no colored lettering to seperate male from female. The traditions stripe for the green Landjahr is the same color also for both genders like the lettering. I don't have the regulations for the earlier triangle to reference from, if there were even regualtions for it. The black Landjahr triangle did exist, that I am confident of. I had a discussion with Jeff Hammond regarding unusual triangles once and this is what he wrote me about the black Landjahr triangle.

"Thank you for sending the image of that quite unusual youth triangle. My initial reaction is that such a thing probably is not original, but I applied that test to one shoulder triangle and later found out that I missed out on an extremely rare triangle. One of my collector friends had gotten a Landjahr triangle (the typical green type), and he found that it had been sewn on top of a black Landjahr triangle. I bought the black triangle from him, but when I looked at it, I thought that it just couldn’t be right. For one thing the style of the lettering was different. I sent it back and got my money back. Well many years later I found out that the back Landjahr triangles with a different style of lettering were used for a short time. So that’s what I get for being overly skeptical. I missed out on an original triangle of a type that I will probably never see again."

Hello,
I have just joined this forum and I am very surprised to see my triangle, bought recently in Hamburg. This early triangle Landjahr was worn from 1934 till end 1935.
I can confirm you that it is not rare in the german collection.
I hope that the translation is good because I am French and I do not speak English well.
- Attached photos both sides of the triangle.
Best regards

WIDUKIND

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Hi Widukind,

Welcome to the forum. Your English is excellent by the way. Can you confirm that there were male and female versions of the black triangle? Or was it just one for all?
 
HI Garry,
it was the first model which is definitively abandonned at the beginning of year 1936.
It was just one for all. HJ and BDM.
I wish to greet all the HJ collectors of this forum.
Kind regards
 
Many thanks for the info Widukind. You don't happen to have a Verordnungsblatt reference or RZM reference do you? That would really put the icing on the cake.
 
HI Garry,
it was the first model which is definitively abandonned at the beginning of year 1936.
It was just one for all. HJ and BDM.
I wish to greet all the HJ collectors of this forum.
Kind regards

Hello and welcome. Also thank you for your explaination of the rare triangle.
 
Well, the new reference describes this short lived triangle in detail and includes a photo of a yellow lettering triangle. It also includes references to a note in the Verordnungsblatt of may 19, 1934 from a Gebietsfuhrer Bicker that confirms the existance of a black and yellow Landjahr triangle for HJ and a black and white for BDM. There is another reference in the book from a period publication regarding yellow and white lettering for the triangle. If this is information is correct it would indicate that there were in fact male and female examples of this early triangle. I've seen only two in collections or up for sale personally and they were white lettering examples.
 
Hi Gefolgschaft,
it is a very important information and it is going to start terrible debates.
I would like to know if your information must be taken in the conditional?.
Many certainties have just fallen since yesterday evening in Europe and I think that you are aware of it.
Best regards
 
like everything take with a grain of salt. I have not yet recieved my book but note that on two occasions one of the authors has backed off statements made earlier such as dating triangles. Debate is good though and hopefully this book is not to radical

PAUL
 
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