Mint M4/55 Hitler Youth buckle with label

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Hello
enjoy.......
mfg Brian

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Were you the first one to open the wrapped buckle from the time that it was wrapped in the factory ?
 
I thought there was always a separate place for the Hersteller to stamp their number? I dunno, it looks like it was made last week? W.Saris would know about this, he used to have a huge collection of Belt buckles. I know nothing about them, but for some reason, whenever i see something that looks like it was made yesterday, i always have my reservations. If it is real, then its surely in Top notch condition for sure :thumb:
 
@ Joe
I´m not the first......

@ Metallwarenfabrik
The belt buckle is from a "Hortfund" in Austria

here a Pic....

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... I dunno, it looks like it was made last week? ... I know nothing about them, but for some reason, whenever i see something that looks like it was made yesterday, i always have my reservations. ... :thumb:

Right Jo, I did have the same gut feeling. :glare:
But I also don't know much about HJ RZM companies and different RZM tags as they can be seen on the Austria Hortfund picture.
And as long as one can't proof that it is a fake a gut feeling is not a good point of evidence. That is why I did not say anything.

By the way, Brian: Does the paper glow under blacklight? I hope for you, that this buckle is real, because it does look very beautiful.
 
a gut feeling is not a good point of evidence.
Let me explain my view point of the above statement, Firstly, i dont believe in Hoards, Hortfunde, anything of that sort at all. For me, its a Fairy tale to introduce a few more boxes of 60-70s repros that were the "in thing" then. My view on Austria is simple. Of course German makers (in west Germany) were making illegally as well, but nowhere near on the scale of Austrian makers ▬ due to a loop-hole in the Austrian law, it was Legal to make these items FOR EXPORT, and export they did, ten-thousands- of the same item each year, for many Decades, all around the world. (there was certainly a UK and USA repro business as well, but hard to determine if the items offered in the USA/UK at that time were exported in bulk from Austria and then simply mailed around the world again through the USA and UK catalog repro dealers or if there was an actual Production-market in the USA/UK at that time on the same scale as in Europe)

So knowing the above, coupled with common logic, some Math and my gut feeling, i would not be prepared to purchase any item in this condition, and especially not from a hoard find, and most definitely not when it it said to have come from Austria.

Gut feelings will differ, as will the fairy tale of these hoard finds, which have not ceased since 1946..and we are now in 2012. I have been around old things all my life, both my parents were Antique dealers, (in the days before color TV) so i have a good gut feeling when it comes to the age of a certain thing, and that is what makes up my gut feeling. For me, the Hoard dream is a fools one, that has, and continues to blind many collectors, it automatically makes it seem real, and as soon as that Hoard is sprinkled between the community members, each one having a little piece of that famous Hoard, that Famous hoard automatically becomes authentic, with none of the community members even daring to question the fact that it might just have been a set-up.

But i have said here already that i would have no idea about the buckle as such, because i have never owned one, so i cant by any means call it out to be a fake, and i am not even doing that really, just telling you why i would not want it in my house. BUT, it would be nice to see a few more knowledgeable collects comment on why it is NOT a fake, maybe with a few reasons as well, as to why it is "Amazing" and to why its real. That would be good for new collectors wanting to purchase one, maybe more are available from this hoard? (certainly a few more boxes?)
 
Hello
The set up of the Buckle is so well known!
I compared the labels!
But see for yourself

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I have compared this ....

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Thank you for the better photo of the RZM tag, Brian. It leads me to a few more questions, maybe it is just because I don't know anything about the HJ buckles. Maybe people like Chad, or those who know more about RZM tags could give some more information on this. The letter on your tag is an F. On the other tag one sees in the Hortfund photo there is an other letter B or E, maybe? On another buckle tag I found an M. Why is that so?
http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f8/newest-m4-22-hj-buckle-added-collection-first-me-5445/
On the tag it says Hersteller: but non is given. The other tag on the Hortfund photo seems to show a Hersteller, but not M4/55, Julius Kremp from Lüdenscheid.
Why is there a Hortfund of Lüdenscheid buckles in Austria when they had more than 2 dozen buckle makers in Austria? Lüdenscheid to Vienna is about 1000 km.
All I can do, is ask questions because I don't know enough about HJ buckles. Sorry if I am making anyone angry.
I am just wondering. And by now I think I should have bought these:

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Dont think....just follow.

Hello
The set up of the Buckle is so well known!
I compared the labels!
But see for yourself
Hi, not quite sure i follow you really? what do you mean by "the set-up is so well known"? The measurements, weight, any die errors which are also found on known originals? any proof that it was made by the maker apart that it shows a mark on? any detailed research ? or just "opinions"'? Any solid research on the various RZM labels apart from a few small pictures?
I see comparing labels as fruitless and no way to say nay or yay? Thats been shown here many times before with different collectors having different opinions on labels.. and up until today, still many unanswered questions regarding RZM lables that collectors can not answer, but yet will still all swear blind to that the little pictures they see on forums are solid evidence..?? or because a few "experts" say so, yet without any real reason as to why.

But its pointless debating with you (or the experts) on this (my opinion), and the extra "All the MFF experts say yay" comment is added for??? in order to convince me, and others straight away?? Thats what i said above in my last post, it is not possible to debate anything like this, as "all the experts" who say its Sweet, will have a similar piece, if not from the same hoard, then from another.
christianlohmann`s post below raises a few good questions that will will also not be answered because it has already been said by "experts" that it is real, and that; is all that most collectors care about today! As we see here on this thread. He also makes another very good comment:
Sorry if I am making anyone angry.
Because this is exactly what happens when someone (me in this case) goes against the majority vote and does not agree with everyone else. I am also sorry if i am making you, or any other "expert" angry, as i am sure you will know by now, that has never been my intention to disrupt any thread and just pxxx people off. People like Baldes, Niemann and every other COA penner (meaning a person wielding a pen, not as in Germen: Penner) require that they actually HAVE the item and inspect it in hand before they commit to an opinion, but Forum experts can just look at small pictures and reach a unanimous decision, without questioning common logic or the many unanswered questions; that will, and is possibly also untented to, stomp on anything else anyone else asks or puts forward.

The silent Forum-Law requires that when "Yays" are given, and a round of drinks is offered for yet another minty Hoard-aquired item, that experts say is "the danging thing between a dogs back legs", anyone who goes against the flow will be deemed a thread-basher and will be ignored, for now; and harassed later due to the views expressed, especially if those views pertain to common logic and are not in accordance with the silent Forum-Laws.
In closing, i guess as long as you are happy thats all that matters. All i see though are warning flags, bright red, and flying high.
:yo:
 
I'm certainly not an expert on this, but coming in such a great abundance, gives me the idea (should they be real?) that they were directly retrieved from the factory. With that thought in my mind and noticing that they are beiing wrapped ready for shipment wouldn't the makers RZM code be present on the paper tag????
On the picture you see this on the buckle on the rightside. What I also find a little disturbing is that (also visible on the picture) different papertags are used. One would think, again with such a huge pile, coming probably all from the same location, thus the same manufacturer, why then should there be different types of papertags???
I have my doubts about it beiing original. I would not tough it.
:nono:
 
Your opinion is absolutely OK, I have another one. BTW, the find was made many years ago.
Thats what a Forum is supposed to be about, otherwise all it is is someone posting a picture and 100 sheep saying "oooh thats nice" nothing wrong with debating as long as there are no tears before bedtime.
BTW, i can show you books printed many decades ago that show fake, and indeed fantasy items as well, so your closing statement holds no weight whatsoever.
edit: (just so you dont hear me repeating myself again, i will quote someone else who has been collecting for 50 years...) in a book by Ray Cowdery (USM books website) in the early 90s he writes.."if it looks like it was made yesterday, it probably was." and about Hoards.. i believe the first time the community was "warned" about these hoards, was in a militaria book in 1969 ! so my opinion is nothing new.
Anyway, i cant comment anymore because i lack the knowledge about belt buckles, the way they were made etc etc, i`ve had my say, and all it is, is my point of view, or gibblet-feeling.
Happy Pagan-Monday to ya all.
 
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