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  1. #1

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    Questions/Discussion regarding the HJ Scarf/Knot collecting and acquisitions

    Hi all,

    I recently started a thread regarding a recent purchase I made in good faith, from a respected dealer with whom I have done business with in the past (and will with confidence again!).

    The item was (described as) an HJ Scarf Knot by the dealer. I have been wanting to add an HJ scarf/knot combo to my collection, as it is to me, such an iconic piece in the HJ uniform.

    After posting photos, and discussing the item with fellow forum members, it was determined (with my agreement) that the item was, with all probability, NOT an authentic HJ scarf knot (and even IF it is, it would be impossible to verify).

    I want to thank all who participated, because even though the outcome of the discussion was NOT what I was hoping, I did collect some valuable information, and THAT is the reason I joined this forum.

    But, I am still attempting to add this uniform combo to my collection. I thought perhaps a full discussion of the uniform piece(s) could be advantageous to me, and others who would also like to acquire this uniform combo piece.

    I can attempt to condense my questions to two...

    First: Was the HJ scarf marked in any way as official to the organization? Was there an RZM tag sewn to them, or was it stamped in any way? Or, was it simply a black cloth scarf that was issued to the young man with the knot, perhaps in a CONTAINER that was marked as HJ official? Knowing how the items were issued would help in the hunt for an authentic one. But, if I know that I am looking for a black scarf that has an RZM tag (or the remanence where the tag one was), that would again be an excellent clue as to the history of the scarf.

    If the scarves were issued with no marks or tags or stamps of any kind, it would make the authentication of this particular piece of history extremely difficult, as it would almost have to be a part of a larger lot of bring-back items from an Allied soldier, or perhaps a German family heirloom collection...you see my point.

    My second question is similar to the first, but dealing with the knot. I have seen several photo's of knots that are described as authentic, but have noticed differing construction (wider/narrower leather cords). Was this varied construction ok? I have also seen a VERY interesting photo of an RZM embossed knot (thank you "christianlohmann
    ")
    . Was this leather embossment done in a certain time period in the organization? Should I ALWAYS inspect the knot for this marking, or remanence of it, or was it only done for a short period?

    Thanks for any and all forum members that wish to have a conversation about these items. Any information I can gather will be a big help.

    -Craig


  2. #2

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    Also, I suppose we could discuss color of the knot (even though it was discussed in the prior thread). But photo's such as this makes me think that it might be likely to find a knot with a dark, near black color and still be authentic. As we discussed, with use and wear, the color can change to a darker color over time and appear, as in this photo, to be near black.
    HJscarfknot_darkcolor.jpg

  3. #3
    Many different knots were used. Only RZM stamped knots can be without any doubt identified as HJ items. Period photos show odd knots so we know they were used despite regulations. The knots were used before the HJ and some are still in use today. I even had one similar as a Eagle Scout in the U.S.. Stay with RZM stamped knots to be certain they are HJ otherwise it is difficult to prove a knot was used by the HJ.

  4. #4
    The regulations are clear on both the knot and the scarf so we are able to say with 100% certainty what a regulation RZM item should look like. As Darin says, non-regulation stuff was used but the default position for those looking for authentic, regulation items should be those described in the period literature. A black knot cannot be described by a seller as "Hitler Youth" because the regulations tell us that this colour is wrong. All the seller can say about a black knot is that it might have been worn by a member of the Hitler Youth. The knot construction (of a regulation knot) has been discussed on the forum before and this information also comes from the period literature.

    As far as the scarves are concerned, there are threads on the forum that give the dimensions of the early universal scarf and the later smaller version for DJ/JM. Also discussed are the different types that might be encountered and also RZM labels/stamps.

  5. #5

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    Thanks to both of you for the replies. I will search for the threads you referred to.

    I apologize if I created a redundant thread.

    -Craig

  6. #6
    Definitely not redundant Craig. All discussion is good

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