Marine HJ Cap Tally from Bann 355, Ahr, West/Westmark

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Another nice item I picked up at the Pamona show today. A full length MHJ Cap Tally from Bann 355 Ahr, West/Westmark. It's in fantastic condition, when it was pulled from under the table I had to buy it. I think it would look awesome displayed with some MHJ straps.

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Good Job , Can anyone tell me why the change from White lettering to Yellow lettering ...and when .
 
I don't know much about these in regard to the lettering Joe. This one was picked up for a friend and is now off to his focused collection.
 
Yes, just looking at some period references and there is one for 1933, 1934, 1937 and 1942* which I've picked out here and all say white lettering on blue.

The 1937 regulation is shown in the 1942 compendium of regulations as still being extant at that time so we can say that from 1933 to 1942 at least that they were white on blue. Can't say for after that but yellow on blue for the MHJ isn't looking good. Odd.

Also, 'Neuenahr' isn't listed as being the Bann name for 355 at any time. The only change shown for 355 is to 'Ahrweiler' from 1941. I'm not 100% sure but perhaps 'Neuenahr' is the exact location of MHJ-Gefolgschaft 1/355. The regulation says that the location should be the 'Standort' of the unit. It doesn't say that the Bann name has to go on the band so that's possibly why 'Neuenahr' is there and not 'Ahr'
 
This one has white lettering. I think the location on the tally is the exact location of the Gefolgschaft. I know that with these tallies some of them are very localized with the exact standart on them. Thanks for looking in the regulations Garry!
 
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Aha :) I put the pic into Photoshop to see if it was just the lighting that was making the stitching look yellow but couldn't tell one way or the other in the end. Thanks for the follow-up Darin.
 
Yes, those were just a quick shot in the evening with the Iphone, so not the best quality. I had Dani Falk check this one out and he gave it a thumbs up.
 
Good day,

thanks for showing the tally, Darin. Indeed there is no yellow on blue existant - all had white lettering ... with some very very rare exemptions (HJ. Oberbann Berlin West (gold on black like Kriegsmarine), H.J. Marine Chemnitz (silver on black in Latin), Marine H.J. Harburg (white on black in Latin), just to name a few examples). In general it is to say that the latin tallies were worn between 1933 and early 1939, the "gothic" lettering style between 1939 and 1945. I think the Verordnungsblatt with the change of lettering was published 10. January 1939 - don't have my paperwork with me right now.
Also, the blue tally can have a very dark blue shade at times - don't let you be misled: it is still blue and not black as sometimes stated by dealers.
In all this I don't consider the homemade tallies. When boys joined the MHJ, it was sometimes the case that no "official" could be supplied, so their mother or Granny or some local tailor made one for the meantime. And in most occasions they didn't have blue tallies, so black were used as base material.

The location stated on the tally is the unit's Standort. The belonging Bann can be taken from the number (on the second pattern); on the first pattern the Bann cannot be determined. So when you see a first pattern "M.H.J. Schöndorf", for example, no one on earth can say which of the 2 dozens Schöndorf in Germany is meant. However, the fact that it is the Standort, makes this area of collecting endless since every single Schar, if spread far away from each other, has its on location. If there was more then one unit in the same town another digit will be seen behind the name (first pattern) or, on second pattern, it will be then 2/[Bannnumber] Standort 2/[Bannnumber] .
The unit's size was very often not more then a Schar.

Up to today I collected evidence for far above 550 different Marine-HJ tallies, about half of them I can prove by a tally or photograph in my own collection. The plan is to put all the information I have gathered in a little publication one day ... far away from now. So that's why I would highly appreciate if all members could let me know when a tally can be identified clearly on a photo ... it could be a new one on the list.

The yellow on blue tallies which can be seen on Weitze's website since about two years, have no evidence or explaination to have been worn as they are. No function or rank was entitled to "die" their tallies. I requested detailed pictures from the former owner of these two tallies and it was clear that they have been "coloured" with a yellow pen or something. When I turned them down they went to Weitze.

Hope I could have been of help. Any more questions about tallies, just fire them out here and I will try my best.

Rgds

Daniel

P.S.: Always interested to buy tallies and photos with clearly readable tallies. If anyone wants to part I would be delighted to hear about it!
 
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When I turned them down they went to Weitze.
reminds me of that saying.. Een man se dood, is `n anne man se broot !
Good to see the vet-finds being shared amongst the community, albethem colored with a magic marker.....
:swiss
 
In "Sonderdruck" 7/38 from September 30, 1938 the new tally was decribed, being
lighter blue with woven white lettering. The earlier used indication was changed:
in front and behind the Standort-indication the number for the formation was to be
included. This was the number for the Gefolgschaft, slash the number for the Bann.
As an example was given: 3/228 Gelsenkirchen 3/228. Lettering and numbers are in
Fraktur, which is Gothic. The length of a tally was 1.15 mtr.

The Standort-indication was the location for the Gefolgschaft, which often is not the name
for the Bann. In my handbook (page 599) I gave an example: Marine-Gefolgschaft 1 for Plauen,
so 1/134 with the name Plauen and a second Gefolgschaft being 2/134, which was Reichenbach.
 
The Standort-indication was the location for the Gefolgschaft, which often is not the name
for the Bann. In my handbook (page 599) I gave an example: Marine-Gefolgschaft 1 for Plauen,
so 1/134 with the name Plauen and a second Gefolgschaft being 2/134, which was Reichenbach.

Good day Wim,

thanks for clearing up the date of introduction of the 2nd pattern ("Fraktur"/Gothic) tally. However, I was surprised by the first sentence of above quote. You are saying the Standort of the Gefolgschaft is the 'name' on the tally. Since I'm not home at the moment I don't have access to your book. Could you please let me know what, according to your documentation, were the Standorte for following Gefolgschaften (post January 1939):
1/166
2/189
3/233
3/473
2/602

Thanks in advance and regards

Daniel
 
Hello Daniel,

I only do have lists with Bann-numbers. Never was able to make a list with all
Gefolgschaft-numbers. I would not know where to find them. I only had the
complete numbers for Plauen as told about in my book.
The first Gefolgschaft most often is the same as the Bann.

Would like to know who is able to give all the names for the Gefolgschaften
and where they were located. Maybe Garry knows more about this then me!
 
I was surprised by the first sentence of above quote. You are saying the Standort of the Gefolgschaft is the 'name' on the tally.

Daniel

Surprised? I said that in post 4 :001_tongue:

I'll just jump in quickly on the units; the Sonderdruck deals with clothing and doesn't give the names of MHJ-Gefolgschaften. It was situations like this (your question) which gave the impulse for starting this project. If you have any MHJ units you can add it would be greatly appreciated.
 
Garry/Wim,

sorry for being away. My time didn't permit to reply. Garry, I just missed your statement in Post #4.

Well, to be perfectly honest I do not think the designation on the second pattern tally was the Standort of the Gefolgschaft which the Marine-HJ unit was belonging to. There are too many tallies known to me where the designation is a tiny village, simply far too small to be (administrative) base of a Gefolgschaft.
A few examples:

1/166 Flörsheim / Main (6.780 population in 1939 - so this could be acceptable)
2/189 Bleckede (2.634 population in 1939)
2/602 Schreckenstein (this is a castle near the town of Aussig with just a few houses at the road up to the castle - I have been there)
3/473 Ruß (about 3.000 population in 1939)

What I believe is more likely: the numbers of Gef & Bann on the 2nd pattern tally are belonging to the Standort, while the town/village/etc is the exact Standort of the unit (which was probably a Kameradschaft or Schar).

Opinions welcome.

Rgds

Daniel
 
Exact description in German for the Sonderdruck from September 30, 1938:
die bisherigen Beschriftung wird folgendermasse geändert: vor un hinter der Standortbezeichnung wird die Formationsnummer eingewebt und zwar die Gefolgschaftsnummer,
dahinter mit einem Schrägstrich die Bannnumer (z.B. 3/228 Gelsenkirchen 3/228).
Die Standortbezeichnung ist also Gelsenkirchen.
Did I understand something wrong? See also last part post 11. The indication for the Standort for the second Gefolgschaft is Reichenbach. Marine-Gefolgschaft 1 was at Plauen,
which is the location for the Bann headquarters.

Post 16: I think it could have been as below.....
166: apparently there was no naval Gefolgschaft at Bad Homburg, which was the Bann location/headquarters;
189: I think Gefolgschaft 1 may have been located at Harburg-Wilhelmsburg;
473: Gefolgschaft 1 for the naval HJ surely will have been at Heydekrug. Where Gefolgschaft 2 was located I really would not know. For that you need the plan for Bann 473;
602: Gefolgschaft 1 surely will have been at Aussig.

Correct me if I am wrong! We all still have a lot to learn, me especially!
 
Hi Wim,

let's talk first about the Sonderdruck 30/09/1938: the key is, I think: 'What exactly is THE Standortbezeichnung?'. Is it the Standort of the Gefolgschaft (which the Marine-HJ unit belongs to, because there were not entire MHJ Gefolschaften!) or the exact name where the MHJ Schar/Kameradschaft is situated?
I strongly tend to state that the latter is the case and let's take 1/166 Flörsheim as the best example for it: surely Gefolgschaft 1 (no matter was it a Flieger-, Allgemeine-, Nachrichten-, Streifen-Gefolgschaft, whatever) was in Bad Homburg, correct? But what could have happened is that due to administrative reasons a MHJ unit, situated in Flörsheim, was under the umbrella of Gefolgschaft 1.
Otherwise it would be "1/166 Bad Homburg 1/166" and no one would have an indication that the boys were actually coming from Flörsheim.

In regard of Bann 189 it is pretty much the same: you might think Gefolgschaft 1 was somewhere in the fairly dense populated Harburg or Wihelmsburg (both had proven Marine-HJ units because I have tallies of both) - and I'm convinced Gefolgschaft 1 was there! However, there is a tally 1/189 Lüneburg 1/189. Because it might be true what I believe: the MHJ unit in Lüneburg belonged to Gefolgschaft 1. And that's why they got the tally 1/189 Lüneburg. Formationsnummer from the unit they belong to, Standortbezeichnung of their own unit.

Same with 602 Aussig. There is even a tally known for 1/602 Aussig. And I'm convinced with a big town like Aussig (Usti nad Labem nowadays) Gefolgschaft 2 was also situated in Aussig. However, Schreckenstein was Standort of the MHJ unit, but they belonged to 2/602 which was most probably based also in Aussig.

My way of thinking might be also the explaination why there are tallies with same formation numbers but different Standort: "1/211 Lichtenstein 1/211" and also "1/211 Hohenstein 1/211" - both villages 10.6 km apart from each other. They just belonged both to 1/211, Bann 211 was Glauchau. (Lichtenstein 12 km away from Glauchau, Hohenstein about 16 km).
And now the interesting thing on it: I have a Studioportrait where the boy has 1/211 Glauchau on the tally. This would mean, all three units were under the administration of Gefolgschaft 1. However, since they were based in Lichtenstein, Hohenstein and Glauchau they had their own designation on the tallies.

Keep it rolling, Wim. I enjoy the discussion. A learning curve for hopefully both of us.

Daniel
 
Here's an excerpt from the Sonderdruck:

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In that same year the new appointment of 'Standortführer' was introduced within the HJ. In the regulations governing them (JFdDtR VI/7 dated 28.3.1938 and VI/11 dated 6.5.1938) it is stated that they were required in:

1. Cities (more than 100,000 inhabitants)

2. In towns with a population under 100,000 but with boundaries that fell within the area covered by the Bann.

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If the usage of the word 'Standort' isn't a coincidence I think this might explain why you are seeing ostensibly conflicting information on the cap bands.
 

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Daniel, you as a German should best know the meaning for "Standortbezeichnung", which is to be translated as:
station or post. In military terms it is a garrison, which can be a town (Stadt), but also can be a village (Dorf) or
even be a hamlet (Weiler. Bei euch auch bekannt als Kuhdorf).
I just gave the information as how it was written in the Sonderdruck from 1938.

For some photographs, have a look in my handbook, page 375 where three possibilities are shown:
18/202 Hamburg 18/202; 1/211 Lichtenstein 1/211, the naval unit for the Glauchau-area and 2/602 Schreckenstein 2/602,
a naval unit in the area of Aussig.

It is my intention to bring a list of tallies old and new style in volume 6 for "Headgear of Hitler's Germany". I of course
can only give what I have found. I know you do have much more tallies listed then I have, but when interested you can take part.
It's for the benefit of all HJ-collectors.
 
Wim, me as a German know the translation of the word "Standortbezeichnung" very well indeed. What is the exact meaning in terms of the question we try to sort out is the point!

Standort =
1. base of the Gefolgschaft or
2. base of the immediate unit the boy is doing service (Marine-Schar / Marine-Kameradschaft)?

I think I have made my Standpunkt clear enough in post #17.

Since I maintain the list of known tallies together with another collector who doesn't wish publication I cannot pass it on. This was the agreement we made 10 years ago when we joined our lists.

Daniel
 
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