HJ Standard bearer Bann 250 sleeve insignia

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Hi to all. I could use any help with this Bann 250 standard bearer sleeve insignia. I have tried to use all the sources,internet, books, forums but have only found the one Kevin has in this style eagle. Any help would be very welcome before I commit. Thank you

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Hi again to everyone, any thoughts on this Bann eagle would be greatly appreciated as I have exhausted all information I can find. Thanks again for any help...
 
Hi again to everyone, any thoughts on this Bann eagle would be greatly appreciated as I have exhausted all information I can find. Thanks again for any help...
don't be offended, but some of us avoid to give an objective opinion on a photo because the recent techniques to redo these insignias are more and more perfected.
Personally, I have doubts on the very approximate silver edge. It is just my opinion !
 
Thank you Widukind for taking the time to comment. After 35 years of collecting I can only agree, the fakes are getting very dangerous much like the SS insignia is. Any more thoughts would be great...
 
This badge is of the utmost rarity as original item. Beware !
I do not have it in my collection because I flee them like NPEA daggers. I do not trust !!!:mad2:
 
Thank you again Widukind for all the thoughts and help. I would have liked to have heard from some other members but like you said it is a tough call on these birds and so few to really study. This one may fly back to its sellers home...
 
Be wary of the Bann numbered 250 patches. I have seen many of these for sale, in various places enough to make me avoid them. Just my opinion. I agree with Eric on his assessment of this patch.
 
Many thanks to you both for the help, I will be sending the insignia to its old home and the search will continue.
 
In the weekend I did not have time to react, but will do this after all.

The patches with the number 250 are indeed faked. The embroidery structure however with most found
is quite different as from originals. And is not even the same as with the shown one. The main problem is
the style of numbers. Personally I do not like them. The embroidered numbers with the shown one are not
according the used stencil-plate. The zero is to round and should be more oval; the two and five are not
correct either.

Further by Widukind it is said: I have doubts on the very approximate silver edge.
If he means with that the somewhat "twisted" cord, I have to explain. This is not an indication it means
the patch is a fake. Old photographs show this is visible with TR occasions where patches are worn by flag
bearer's. I proved this in my gorget-book on page 213 with an enlargement. I have seen more photographs
with this "problem". On page 212 I do show two patches from the same person. One has straight edge, the
other one show the twists. The last one was actually used and worn (stated by the owner). The twisting is in
many occasions caused by weather situations (rain).
 
yes Wim, I meant the "twisted" cord which is of unrefined manufacturing (rough-textured). it's ugly and the rest of embroidery also.
 
I think this is optical illusion.
In fact with most fakes the cord is slightly thinner, then with originals.

Note the stand for the swastika with post 1: horizontal. It should be somewhat canted.
With the two from the same owner (the HJ flag bearer), there is a difference in the
swastika which is quite attracting. Even the two birds show slight differences!
 
yes it is very uncertain. You have enough experience in this area.There are too many fakes who dragging around for years among militaria dealers, I do not want them for all the gold in the world unless I accept to keep them the rest of my life. LOL
 
The many fakes caused I stopped collecting many years ago. Being about 45 years in this "business" I must admit
I often have doubts and see fake material, made in the 1960's, now being identified as originals.
The first fake embroidered HJ Bann flag bearer's patches I saw date back from about 1974/1975 or so! Can't even
remember anymore. Some Dutch dealer's were very "inventive", as were Pakistani on their orders!
 
Mr Saris, thank you for the eye opening comments and information. I understand what you mean with the numbers (big difference) I had noticed the different birds and the swastika but I wasnt sure if there was another style of this insignia or not. In the future I will now have a better grasp of what to look for.
 
Hello,
this is my Bann "250" badge. It is different from the one in post #1, esspecially when You look at the edges of the wings. On the other hand the numbers look quite similar. IMO the eagle is similar to the one on the attached original "276" badge even though the latter one still looks nicer. But the numbers are quite different in style.
Of course I am aware from the forum, that the "250" badges show up a little too often to be all original, but does this one have a chance?
BTW I own the complete documents of the HJ-boy who wore the "276" badge incl. his ID-card where is mentioned that he is the Bann flag wearer of Bann 276. So there is no doubt at all, that at least this badge (and the second one which belongs to his group) is an original.
Best regards, Thomas

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Hi Thomas, the 276 is a nice one, would you be willing to show the document group? I'm still gunshy with the 250s but yours is much different than the one I sent back. Best, Michael
 
I've probably posted them in the past but in addition to what the guys have already said here are scans from a 1941 DJ leader booklet showing both the Bann/Jungbann and Gefolgschaft/Fähnlein standard bearer patches for general orientation on what an original should looks like. As Wim says, the Bann/Jungbann patches had a particular font which can again be seen on the scans. I would personally avoid all of the "250" patches for the reasons given by Darin and Wim previously.


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Here's one I used to own which again shows that oval "0":

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More patches:

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Hello Garry,
thank You for the pictures. I admit, that the numbers of those original patches look different from the "250"ies. But I really wonder, why the "250"ies have different eagles. Maybe the fakers try to improve?
Attached are some documets from the Jungbannflag wearer of Jungbann 276. You can see he wore the golden Honor badge and the Traditionslitze. He was promoted till Fähnleinführer (promotion documents are included) and was also member of HJ-Streifendienst. There are a lot more documents of this boy from the early beginning 1932 till the 1040ies.
Best regards, Thomas

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