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  1. #21

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    A clue.
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    Last edited by hohum; 8th August 2009 at 07:53 AM.

  2. #22
    I am in agreement with Toby in regards to being cautious with these. I remember a flood of these hitting the gun/militaria shows here in the US back in the 80's. Maybe it was one of the hoard finds, or they were being faked, I don't know for sure. By this time anything faked in the 80's could have some age to it so it appears legit. I would be careful with these.

  3. #23
    Two distincly different styles here. One "bevo" and one embroidered.
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  4. #24
    Some period photos of these cufftitles in wear would be really helpful I think. As Colin is pointing out, the length of the one he is showing (and the ones I showed from the period publication) suggest that the cufftitle was worn on the full circumference of the sleeve as opposed to being a small strip.

  5. #25
    These are both up on an auction site in Germany Garry. The embroidered one seems to be a "wrap around" style while the Bevo appears to be a strip.

  6. #26

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    im thinking they where a hoard find as these are not something you would expect the fakers to go for, they are widely an unknown item outside HJ collectors, and as we know the HJ for a large period have been ignored by the fakers

  7. #27
    You are probably right Stu. I don't remember seeing many HJ fakes at all back then with the exception of flags.

  8. #28
    Here's a photo from Anglias HJ Vol 1 that seems to support the wearing of this as a short stripe, not really clear but note the left sleeve of the instructor.
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  9. #29
    Excellent. Thanks Darin. I dug out the 1936 regulation which introduced these cufftitles but it doesn't mention the length of the band so it's good to see this picture. I wonder if anyone can come up with a photo showing the longer version in wear.

  10. #30

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    I bought a short yellow band years ago, did'nt get a good feeling about it so I asked around and Bob Hirtz told me they were original and found on rolls and cut and sold. On this point I would say we all know that a full lenth of any cuff title sells for a lot more that a cut version of same and they were well aware of that in the 80's, so I think it is safe to assume that the short ones must have been woven with not much of a gap between the lettering, hence they are all short.. more titles per inch of material.

    My red title breaksdown to 114mm left of lettering, 62mm of lettering then another 163mm right of the lettering, giving 339mm.

    My yellow short one breaks down to 26mm left of lettering, 92mm of lettering and another 28mm behind it.. total is 146mm.

    Now I hope this makes sense, on the roll, there must have been a gap of at least 277mm between the individual letterings on the red full lenth cuff roll (114 + 163). On the yellow roll it would be 54mm between the titles (26 + 28)

    I can also say that the red lettering is different (thinner) on the full lenth red one, and the "=" seems more square, the yellow "=" appears to be slightly slanting upwards and as mentioned the full lenth one is softer and feels to the touch more period.

    I have tried a burn test on the black material, for me the red passes and the yellow fails. Others can try it and see what they find.

    Ken Jasper once beat me to a green title on one of Detlev's updates, must have been a good 10 years ago, maybe even more, it came with docs of entitlement to wear it and other pieces, very annoying but at least it went to a good home, From memory it was shorter than the full lenth red one, but longer by a fair bit than the often seen short ones, I had pics of that group from the update but that computer was stolen...anyone else save it? Long time ago, but reference files are there to be kept so maybe?

    The Berlin triangle is there for scale only and did not come with my red title, which was bought as a single item from Detlev.

    Pretty long winded, sorry.
    p.s. I will edit to add that what Wim Saris has to say about the heavy faking of HJ triangles on the WW2 forum should dispel any hopes that HJ was'nt faked much in previous years.
    Last edited by hohum; 9th August 2009 at 04:25 AM.

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