dj sigrunes

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hi all
we all know the regular oberbann sigrunes
oberbann 1 red
2 yellow
3 green
4 blue
5 black
6 white

but i noticed on one of darins thread other colours a red sigrune on a white background and a red sigrune on a blue background, what where these for
stu
 
Stu, those are the earlier versions in use before standardisation in 1934. Many of them seem to be odd colored because they match the state colors, sort of like the real early HJ straps. Edit, the red rune with white background is pictured on page 71 of Youth Led By Youth vol 3.
 
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The Jungvolk was the only youth organisation which was permitted to continue using its pre-Hitler Youth symbol after going over to the HJ on the 27th of March 1931 so a lot of these odd runes are likely to date from the years before that point but I've yet to find a book - period or modern - which gives an official date (with reference) for the introduction of the Sigrune armpatch prior to the standardised version in 1933.

The earliest reference I have for the wearing of the sigrune by the Jungvolk dates to 1930 but unfortunately it isn't described in any detail only that it was worn on the left sleeve. The pre-1933 colours must have been chosen using some kind of system but certainly for me it remains a mystery. I wonder if any information on that is given in the clothing regulations from 1933? What do Angolia etc say about the introduction of the sigrune patches?
 
thats what im curious about i thought these where early insignias but was wondering if they where from specific areas or groups and how many differant ones are there
 
Garry, the Angolia books are vague at best in terms of information on the early sigrunes. They show a few photos but not much information.
 
Cheers Darin.

I've just been looking at a load of photos in early books and sometimes there's a pattern with the runes and sometimes not. Some pictures show DJ boys wearing the HJ armband, another interesting photo shows a rune armband being worn, some boys have no insignia but are marching with other boys wearing runes etc etc. Nothing new there and it doesn't answer the question of whether the rune was something introduced after the DJ was formed or whether it had been in use by one (or indeed all) of the Jungvolk groups prior to the amalgamation. The DJ was very small in size compared to the HJ when it went over in 1931 and didn't really explode until 1933 so perhaps there was no need to enforce a common rule as far as the Sigrune was concerned which could explain the variations and the rarity of these pre-Oberbann runes. Definitely something worth looking into more.
 
There is a caption on one of the photos in the Angolia book showing an early pattern rune that states it was worn prior to the district triangle being introduced.
 
Yes, he very possibly has a copy of the RJF order governing the introduction of the new Oberbann runes. With a little luck it may describe or say something about the old rune system.
 
A little more on this subject. Wim's book lists the colors for the dual colored piping for the early HJ shoulder straps by location according to the color of the piping and numbering. The list covers the time period from April 1931 to January 1933. It lists the HJ Gruppe/Gau by Bann name, the two colored piping for the Gau (during SA assignment), the basic color for the Gau and as used on the shoulder strap numbers, and the colors used before the July 1933 reorganization. It is a complex section of the book with many footnotes. While it does not specifically address the early DJ Sigrunes, it would make sense (to me anyway) that the sigrunes colors would follow suit.
 
Here are Wims thoughts when asked if the Sigrunes color matched to the first pattern straps.

"What exactly happened before the HJ was assigned to the SA, was a difficult fact. Here I am not sure, as not much documentation was found that gave a 100%solution! During the assignment to the SA the changing went along with the many and constant color changes for the SA.

About the early sigrunes practically nothing was said and we must consider them a combination of colors as for the SA (the Landesfarben, as they also were named as such within the HJ). Due to the many changes there I can believe they didn't know it themselves anymore and for that reason they accepted the new colors as from late 1933. The well-known six colors.

I think I did not give a satisfying answer. I wonder who can give here a positive and correct answer to that matter. I have not found any HJ collector who has material from the early thirties (not even speaking about material from the twenties) through the summer 1933 re-organization. Anyway not those I know about
."
 
Stu, those are the earlier versions in use before standardisation in 1934. Many of them seem to be odd colored because they match the state colors, sort of like the real early HJ straps. Edit, the red rune with white background is pictured on page 71 of Youth Led By Youth vol 3.

some nice runes on page 71 i like the large cloth dj patch like the membership badge, what would that be used for?

also garry is that your rzm sealed example on page 71 of phils book?
 
Ewin, I think Garry had that large DJ member "patch" in his collection at one time. I think also that the sealed pattern rune in the book is the one Garry has or had.
 
Yes, I was lucky enough to have owned a few items from the old Phillip Baker collection for a while. Still have the RZM/MPA Obergebietsjungvolkführer rune but as Darin says, the DJ patch was sold a while back. My feeling was that it was removed from a pennant like the one you see in pic 1.

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Yes, I was lucky enough to have owned a few items from the old Phillip Baker collection for a while. Still have the RZM/MPA Obergebietsjungvolkführer rune but as Darin says, the DJ patch was sold a while back. My feeling was that it was removed from a pennant like the one you see in pic 1.

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gary cheers for the info, is mr baker no longer a collector i take it? that old lager flag of his that tobys got is nice :001_tt1: :thumbup1:
 
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