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  1. #21
    The ones I have show that same "bald" area that you mention Stu, and also have the two threads coming off the bevo. It's not the test of all tests, but stick them under a blacklight and they will glow like they were made in Chernobyl if they are modern. Mine are all really dull under blacklight, almost grey. I have this one, and it definetly looks period, that shows the same characteristics on the reverse as the ones you posted. It shows three threads but it's a silver leader style.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #22
    These patches do date to the early period as you know so a lot of them would not have been subject to the later uniformity of manufacture prescribed by the RZM so slight differences might not be tooo important.

    I think a little more faith than usual is required to go for items like those shown above though (quick edit: not yours Darin, the ones Stu posted). I had a shirt-removed yellow/black which was different in a couple of ways to the one here but that's not enough evidence to make a decision one way or the other. I think that gut-feeling is needed with these patches.

  3. #23
    THERE is no Problem with them being identical that is in fact good as the same templates where used for all and only the colour thread was changed during each batch weave

    PAUL

  4. #24

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    heres my biggest issue with these and i hope you can all give me your thoughts, these where not used after 1934 which means these unissued examlpes must have been sitting idle in a factory for 11yrs before the third reich collapsed why?.
    i can understand unissued items from the end of the war where they where made and due to the collapse where never issued, but if these where made redundant in 34 why keep stock of them surely any surplus would have been destroyed in the 11yr time scale
    your thoughts

  5. #25
    My thoughts, and it's just my opinion Stu, are that the early plans were to make the HJ/DJ into a massive organisation, so they cranked up and made tons of insignia. With the abolishment of the Oberbann system they probably had tons of these sitting ready for use, that got shuffled to a backroom or basement. Uniform stores and RZM outlets were probably stuck with extra stock as well in 1935/36 that they didn't destroy due to the fact it was technically property of the state. Not knowing exactly what to do they just boxed them up possibly. I've often wondered this also, and you will see in my collection mostly uniform removed examples for that reason. Just my thoughts, I may be way off base.
    Last edited by Gefolgschaft; 4th July 2009 at 04:15 PM. Reason: additional comments

  6. #26

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    Thank you all for your valuable information !

  7. #27

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    Hey Stu,

    I remember you showing me that one and it was not made like any of mine with the white wings off to the sides.

    To give a little history about the colored runes and why so many of them look the same are unissued with no RZM tag. A big early collector of HJ who went around to stores that were athorized RZM retailers and manufacturors back in the 60's 70's and 80's found the bulk of the ones for sale today in one haul. He told me he went to a store and asked if they had any NS period items in the basement or storage. The guy took him into the back and said he personally destroyed everything that had a swastika during occupation. He found shoulder boards, insignia and all sorts of stuff without the swastika packed up in boxes. He opened up a box and found the early runes patches. When he turned them over they still had the RZM tag. The old man saw the Swastika on the tag, grabbed the box and said these are not for sale and would go into the trash. My friend begged for them and finally they agreed he could buy them but the tags would be removed and destroyed. The old man ripped the tags off and threw them into the trash. He never told me how many he found but he sold them very smartly by selling small batches over time so not to flood the market like the 663 or 565 boards. He did say that all the dealers bought from him and that the vast majority of unissued ones came from him no matter who the dealer was. Some have little pieces of the RZM tags left. Clyde also told me that he did find a few with most of the tags still attached but he kept them for himself. Mine do show remnants of the tags. The runes were as rare as hens teeth before he found the box. As Darin said finding a used one is hard to do. This is a very typical story for unissued stuff - box finds.

    So the rune might be original but it does not match what is known to be original from his lot.

    Note: He always asked more for the black on white ones because they were NPEA (ohhh ahh caaching!), eventhough he told me they were found in about equal numbers.
    Paul

  8. #28
    Thanks for shedding some light on the subject Paul! I recall hearing that story somewhere, reading that sort of refreshed my old memory.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Gefolgschaft View Post
    My thoughts, and it's just my opinion Stu, are that the early plans were to make the HJ/DJ into a massive organisation, so they cranked up and made tons of insignia. With the abolishment of the Oberbann system they probably had tons of these sitting ready for use, that got shuffled to a backroom or basement. Uniform stores and RZM outlets were probably stuck with extra stock as well in 1935/36 that they didn't destroy due to the fact it was technically property of the state. Not knowing exactly what to do they just boxed them up possibly. I've often wondered this also, and you will see in my collection mostly uniform removed examples for that reason. Just my thoughts, I may be way off base.
    That's my thinking too. A friend of mine used to live in a small village in Germany. The cobbler died in 1962 and the family locked the shop to await the outcome of his will. I've no idea why but the shop remained locked until 1990 when it was finally emptied and sold. I often stood with my nose pressed up against the glass when the shop was still locked up. It was a total time capsule and I've often wondered what treasures they found in there.

    Excellent info Paul

  10. #30
    the finding of hoarde stock is still on going and from a professional point of view being an old CQ nothing is thrown away, many times when I took over or audited a storeroom there would be WW11 stocks still in evidence.

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