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No contradiction Darin. That picture (I've attached a slightly clearer version below) is showing the correct configuration which is repeated in the references I quoted above. The outer ring on the standard item is 3mm wide (and flat) and 3mm from the patch edge as shown on my graphic below and as detailed in the RZM manufacturing instructions. Joe's patch however has gold braid and there's no 3mm space between that braid and the patch edge.
I see what you are saying Garry. The period picture is still not that great, wish it showed some better detail. I think it's possible the outer portion around the ring is folded under as it looks like the patch is sewn to the shirt material on the inside of the braid. The braid is what's different here. :confused:
:) Well, I think we may have to agree to disagree Darin.
My purpose here is not to rubbish Joe's patch of course but rather to discuss how it should look when compared with the available evidence. It may indeed be some kind of variation although I have my doubts for the reasons given earlier. Perhaps it could be a repaired patch which might explain the missing edge but that's something we'll never know. As always in cases like this each must make his mind up on how he feels about a given item but things can't be discussed fully without reference to period information and regulations (when available).
Anyway, here are good scans from 'Die Uniformen der HJ' (first picture) and 'Die Uniformen der Braunhemden'. These are period publications from 1933 and 1934 respectively and as you can see they both show the gap between the outer ring and the edge of the patch. As I mentioned earlier, the RZM manufacturing regulations confirm this in more exact terms.
Check out this pic:
Nice shot of a DJ Gebietsjungvolkführer
He's wearing the regulation Gebietsjungvolkführer patch with the flat-stitch outer ring as described in the RZM regulations and shown in the attached scans. I would argue that his patch has not been folded under to hide the 3mm border. In any case, it makes no sense to me that the RZM would use such thick and high quality cloth on an item (and make it a perfect circle) if the intention was that the end user must cut the edge off or cut flaps into it before sewing it to a uniform unless of course Joe's patch was repaired at some point to remove a ragged edge/damaged flat-wire outer ring but as I said, that's something we'll never know.
Thanks for the better scans Garry! I can see these much more clearly. That photo is also great.
No probs Darin. Yes, that photo is very nice isn't it. Only bad thing about it is that it's not mine :)
A quick update shot of the overall collection. Photo is not great quality, just a quick snap with the Iphone.
Click for pic
Just reading "Von der Hitlerjugend zur Waffen-SS" by Helmur Günther and he mentions this very type of early patch. He mentions that he joined the DJ in Dresden in 1931 and that his sleeve rune was white on green. As you say, these were the SA colours for Sachsen (the order notes that the colour was "smaragd-grün", emerald green). Nice one.
Actually, I'm still trying to find out whether the pre-1931 Deutsches JUngvolk (before they were incorporated into the HJ) wore a sleeve rune patch or whether that was something that was subsequently invented for them. I know that Baldur von Schirach had a hand in the design and appearance of the youth uniforms so perhaps the idea for a sleeve rune was his.
Nice period information Garry. Well done turning it up!