flat enamel

One thing is fact. There is a large "cottage" industry in Latvia (among other places like Pakistan for example) that makes reproduced TR period items. I haven't commented on the authenticity of this badge, it's not an area that I study very much so I don't know about that. I have heard more than one horror story of parcels from Latvia, among other Eastern nations, being lost, stolen, missing etc. No intent to make a broad statement about Latvians other any other nationality, only stating the rumors and stories I read about regarding unreliable postage from the region.

Guys, my country is known for having a terrible postal service and many crooks too.Some people is wary to deal with italians because horror stories, but I regularly buy and sell from/to US without major problems.
The same could be said for England.I've lost many parcels coming from there recently, more than from overseas. Many fakes started circulating from there from the 70's.Recently the biggest fraud I've heard in years was committed by someone from there. Should we say that England is a red flag? I don't think so. Earlier this year I've been burnt by a HJ badge I bought from Hungary, eastern Europe. The seller turned out to be british, again.
It's indeed difficult to generalize and in my humble opinion 99% of the times wrong.

Today China and other asian countries produce most of the fake brand name clothes on the market. Do you know why it's so difficult to stop that? Because they are purchased and re-sold by other countries. Look at the ebay for brand names: you would feel safe to buy american or british brand names from US or UK sellers ...very wrong, 99% is cheap junk stuff made in China.

Back to the badge, you might be surprised that this badge has been actually bought in the US years before, so it's not actually coming from Latvia. I got it for a very good price dealt privately and including registered shipping and with 7 days inspection . I don't have the badge in my hands yet but it appears to be a honest deal to me, very seldom met.
 
Ok, point taken. There are fakes everywhere & there is no escape, wherever you buy from. Is it wrong to say then, that Eastern Europe is a place where a lot of fakes are made and sold? From what Zeller says, there are no more there than there are anywhere else in the world.
Being in Australia, I am ignorant. What to believe??? I mean, you will never see Third Reich items at a market here. Fake or real. I've just never seen em. At antique shops yes, I've seen some items but never at markets or second hand shops or anything. Oh wait, I've seen a fake HJ dagger at a home brew shop but it was so hokey and obviously fake. And not sold as a real item. A mate just got back from Europe and he said at a market in Poland there were fake SS daggers and all sorts of other stuff.
I've never been out of Australia so I don't really know the situation over there. I just know that I have heard a lot of times that Eastern Europe is a great place for fakes. But I am open to new knowledge.
 
I can not understand your position on this but that is what the forum is for freedom of speech and thought within the rules enough said

hi paul
my position is much the same as yours, healthy discussion is great for the forum and this badge definetly warrants discussion, i believe it to be good i may be wrong thats just my opinion.
the point i was trying to make (not very well) is there are poeple here who are more experianced and have more knowledge than others all be it in diff areas, these opinions are accepted by the less experianced and are highly valued as a learning process, so at the start of the thread when you put this badge up for discussion, just because you did put it up people automatically assumed it was bad as they value your opinion and dont see why you would put a good badge up for discussion, the same if darin was to say a perfectly good strap was bad you would be surprised how many people would agree with him as they value his opinion.

discussion is good but i think when the more knowledgable open threads to discuss a general item they should state that they are not saying it is good or bad but are just looking for an open discussion , this encourages the newer members to join in giving their own opinions and not automatically giving the answers they assume the thread warrants .

i know you never said the badge was fake but your first post was just showing the link to the badge and then on your second post you mentioned the bad badges coming from differant areas,as you are one of the more knowledgable and valued members of this forum, this automatically made other members assume this badge was bad and stopped any hope of genuine discussion which is what you wanted in the first instance

im, going to have a lie down now i feel drained:lol:
 
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I also maybe misunderstood the original thread? A link was posted and red flags raised for flat enamels and origin.
Agree with Stu, when an experienced collector starts such kind of threads watchers tend to believe that's because the badge is bad.

I do live in Europe (not eastern europe...just eastern borders of south europe, just before the old iron curtain) and I hunted in all the main fleamarkets in southern austria,italy,slovenia and southern Germany. that's where sometimes you can still have lucky finds but today like 20 years ago there are many fakes too. If you're a tourist and expect to find genuine and rare stuff at the street markets in Budapest or Prague well you will probably be ripped off. But by reading a little bit of history of those so called eastern european countries, you will be surprised how many boots marched over there and battle been fought. There is still genuine stuff but it's not so easy to get.
With internet available since almost 20 years, the market is global, so you may end up buying a vet's find from a garage sales in Ohio purchased by a latvia collector on internet and now resold. This is my point. Best thing is to judge the item not the story or the origin.
 
no one has condemned the badge , it has been commented on. I posted it and have stated on at least two occasions for discussion not emotions. And it is well known the badge is controversial and therefore deserves discussion lets not start getting our dander up over nothing as this is what causes the problems on other forums


well,the forum provides good informations and it is always great to discuss with other collectors and change your mind.
here's your post on the sale thread:

quote
"THAT HJ pin need to be discussed IMO THAT FLAT ENAMEL IS NOT GENERALLY ACCEPTED AS PERIOD

Paul"

unquote
 
well,the forum provides good informations and it is always great to discuss with other collectors and change your mind.
here's your post on the sale thread:

quote
"THAT HJ pin need to be discussed IMO THAT FLAT ENAMEL IS NOT GENERALLY ACCEPTED AS PERIOD

Paul"

unquote

yes that is my point and it is not generally accepted which is why the topic was opened any collectors who have been around for a couple years know the problems generated when these started showing up on the HJ knives and if I sow the seed of doubt in the newer collectors and they start doing due diligence then my job is done.
I also believe as a moderator here it is my job to stimulate debate and encourage posting and of course thought among the members
the pedigree of an item is most important ie country of origin the is normally the first red flag these days and yes many different countries are notorious for certain copies which get which get around the world but it is the source that is important to start the investigation it is not racist nor a slurr on the country it is just a known source and with knowledge you have power.
 
yes that is my point and it is not generally accepted which is why the topic was opened any collectors who have been around for a couple years know the problems generated when these started showing up on the HJ knives and if I sow the seed of doubt in the newer collectors and they start doing due diligence then my job is done.
I also believe as a moderator here it is my job to stimulate debate and encourage posting and of course thought among the members
the pedigree of an item is most important ie country of origin the is normally the first red flag these days and yes many different countries are notorious for certain copies which get which get around the world but it is the source that is important to start the investigation it is not racist nor a slurr on the country it is just a known source and with knowledge you have power.

So in a nutshell, what do you think, it's good or bad?
regards zeller
 
hi paul

can you expand on your reasons the m1/42 maker makes you concerned its a legit rxm maker so have you seen other fakes etc by this maker to make you suspicious of this maker
 
Mike will be able to tell us more I'm sure but aren't these badges viewed as being okay when seen on a knife? Okay, you can't see the badge maker on a knife but the enamel is the same. If they are okay on a knife then it would follow that a membership badge would also be okay. The obverse of the badge shown looks pretty good in my opinion.
 
THE reason I am wary of the m1/42 is it is a relatively common maker and have only seen the normal speckled version from him.
From what I have seen of the HJ knives is when they show up is always looks like a replacement and believe the jury is still out on these. I asked evil mike to post his thoughts and hope he does

PAUL
 
Hi guys, WAF is down again at the moment so i havent seen the pic's yet, however there are known and approved solid red enamel pin badges as pins, in knives etc as Garry says. On knives many a debate can be had, the majority in my opinion that i have seen appear to me to have broken or repaired rivets..... now you see where iam going there. Russ has xrayed one and it shows the characteristics of the correct fittings. Personally i'd still like to find one that shows no potential repair shall we say and break it open to see the maker marks on the reverse..... expensive thing to do $$$$

The whole solid red diamond being a red flag has certainly changed in the last year, i see alot of hj knives in fairs, most i dont like, certainly in those bad ones alot have the red diamond amongst other problems.

solid red = late production, i think so, cheaper costs, quicker production? it would be nice to record all these makers, you dont see a huge number so its unlikely to think every factory is knocking them out

I'll try and get back when i can see the photos, the thing to go on though will be the reverse fittings, certainly plenty of know things to look for and rule out.

Mike
 
I think Mr Ayerst means that m1/42 badges need to be researched and investigated further (in his opinion), not just that particular item.

Correct me if I am wrong Mr Ayerst.

prickly issue, but good discussion

I feel that the pin is good , but I also feel that it should be discussed in detail .
I have two flat enamel HJ pins .... M1/155 and M1/130 .
 
i only have the one solid and its a m1/109, if these where bad you would not expect to see such a varied amount of makers,there are def bad ones out there but i also believe there are a lot of good ones
 
Red opaque enamel is no real sign of fake. There are party pins with this enamel as wel. Also daimonds in HJ knives can have this tomato red enamel.

Regards, Wim

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GREAT POINTS it seems most accepted one so far have the higher RZM issue numbers 109 155 130 etc. One must take into account that the flat red is very easy to reproduce and that would apply to the party badges where many fakes are known . The Russians are particularly good at this ref the fake red star orders that plague the market.
 
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