HJ Arbeiter-Jugend membership badge with full RZM M1 markings. Did these exist?

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Hi All,

Sorry, for the stupid question, but I am a little bit confused with this area.

was "das alte runde HJ-Abzeichen" produced with the RZM mark? I am not sure about that, i may have read (maybe bad read)that they werent mark, so it is easy to spot them as fakes.

I have been looking for something in the Mitteilungsblatt der HJ and found the comment attached in the Ausgabe 18 de 1935, already June 1935. By that period, were already badges produced with the RZM stamp?

Sorry once again...

Regards

Antonio

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Hi Antonio, see this thread i started last week.

The answer to your question lies within the RZMMtbl. snippet that you just showed. They were only allowed to be produced (after the badge was replaced - hence the terminology "Alte-Old") on order from, and in accordance with, the RZM regulations at that time, meaning that of course they must be marked with the RZM logo and license number.
But as we know from the history of this particular badge, many makers were making them even years before this, who were not allowed to make them! Hence the marks we find like Assmann/Beco etc and the many Ges.Gesch and unmarked examples.

Yes that announcement is from June, two months after the introduction of the RZM M1/ prefixing system, BUT, and i tried to explain this in detail in my book, do not for one moment think that official insignia makers were ALL using the RZM M1/ new system - markings at this time, they were not. The 1st pattern HJ badges we find with RZM code, are all marked in the transitional way, only RZM logo and license number, no M1/ prefix. There are no accepted genuine 1st pattern HJ badges with the M1/ prefix. (Plenty of fakes though, M1/4, M1/73, M1/123, M1/133, M1/129 etc)

Insignia makers would have been, and were using the transitional way of marking (only RZM logo and number with no prefix, or N,Nr,N° prefix) long past March bzw. April 1935, and from my research right into 1936. The reasons behind this have also been addressed, and are many! But possibly the best explanation was "using up old stock".

Once you take apart these years, 1933-1936, and study them in detail, and understand them with relationship to the markings that we find on all small official insignia around this time, asd well as the "law(s)" at that time, it becomes easier to understand.
Most, if not all M1/ license holders, would surely have been using the new M1/ prefix around the start, to the middle of 1936. This was now more than 3 year after the new HJ diamond badge came out, so there was really no need for old 1st pattern badges at this time, so - this is why we dont find any with the M1/ prefix.

When you understand this (more or less) you can see how stupid it becomes to even try and believe that the Zinc 1st pattern HJ badges are real. How can they be real? We have Transitional marked badges, they fit in to history and time period, and are supported with this official announcement showing us that they were RZM marked, then after early-mid 1936 we have no M1/ (new prefix) badges. THEN, 6-7 years later...there was a need to suddenly produce them again in zinc? you see how history and a few facts can show you that the zincs cant be real?

Just one more point quickly regarding "old stock". Think about the time period, 1933, and think about what happened in that year. The demand for official NSDAP items exploded overnight, millions of new NSDAP members within 2 moths.. The NSDAP was now ruling Germany, so what would makers have been doing? producing a massive amount of stock to either cover orders, or they were planning ahead because they saw what was coming, and knew that much more would be needed. So "Old Stock" that was being used up in 1934-1935 and maybe even a little after, was more than likely produced in 1933!

One more boring point, remember as well the financial crisis of that time, in 1933-34 Europe and indeed the world was still recovering from a terrible financial collapse (much worse than today) so the RZM did certainly not tell makers in April 1935 to throw away all their stock just because there was no (new) M1/ prefix on the item. I am sure they gave makers all the time they needed to sell what was already made.
sorry, boring facts and discussion i know.... but it really is these many "other" factors we need to consider when we debate items, and not just one small announcement, or what one person says/thinks.

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Yes, the Arbeiterjugend badge was still being listed as late as 1940 but as we discussed in another thread, the market for the badge will have disappeared rapidly after the introduction of the HJ-Ehrenzeichen as the outward sign of the wearer's status as one of the 'Alte Garde'. The introduction of the HJ-Ehrenzeichen in 1934 would explain why no genuine badges are known with full RZM markings i.e. the market for the Arbeiterjugend badge dwindled rapidly and that stock produced during the transitional period was sufficient to cover retail requirements meaning no production runs during the 'full-RZM' period and therefore no M1/... Arbeiterjugend badges.
 
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