HJ Arbeiterjugend membership badge with white enamel RZM and GES. GESCH

Garry

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I noticed this one on WAF and thought that it would be a good idea to dedicate a thread to it here on the HJ forum. The owner of the badge is clearly convinced that it is period but its appearance absolutely begs discussion.

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Clearly, this badge represents a big departure from the norm. What is it telling us?
 

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Hi Garry. I actually replied to the thread on waf, took me about 15 minutes, but after i read what i had actually written, and then took out the "F" words, took out the "S" word, took out the insults.. all that was left in my post was:
Gentelmen.... xxxx..xxxx..xxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx.......xxxxxx........XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX......XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX!
so i just left it and posted something simple. :good:

There is no need to discuss the colors, the reverse die used shows us exactly what it is, a fake from the early 70`s, using the same reverse die that is found on a number of fakes and fantasy badges all by the same British forger. This badge is not original, ANY badge that makes use of this specific reverse die, is not original. I covered this in the book as well, but as i am only now finding out, what i was told a few months ago is actually true.

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One of the people who proof read my book, said to me, "Yes but Jo, you do know that most of the people who buy books, DONT ACTUALLY READ them?" I did find that strange, pay €115.- for a book you are not even going to read... and did actually dismiss it, BUT after what i have recently found posted on the MFF, i have to acknowledge that the advice given, was spot on.
My personal opinion is that a great deal of collectors, cant actually read English - or any other language for that matter, and are content in pointing to images in a book and forgetting that the accompanying text may actually have something to do with the images....
 

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...There is no need to discuss the colors, the reverse die used shows us exactly what it is, a fake from the early 70`s, using the same reverse die that is found on a number of fakes and fantasy badges all by the same British forger...

That's exactly what I was looking for for the thread Jo. Cheers. It puts RonR's statements fully into perspective:

"The 1st design HJ badge is pinned to a flag on which a veteran pinned a number of his souvenir pins"

and when prompted to show the badge reverse:

"First time ever off the flag...."

The dangers of the vet story...
 
Garry, i have added RonR`s image to the fake list of these, directly under the same fake with black enamel.

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If there was a new rule that could be introduced to forums, it should be the following.
The term VET may only only be used on a forum thread, AFTER the item presented has been fully discussed. Use it before, and you get expelled in an instant.
 

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Totally agree. RonR's silence seems to suggest that the vet was enough to convince him and that he isn't willing to accept a different outcome. You would hope that he will respond and acknowledge the evidence.
 
No, he is the same as Weinlands and the other oldies, 1-post, 2-add the word VET, 3-then run away. Why these oldies are even afforded a minute of anyones day anymore is beyond me.
 
Vet bring backs are indeed not the holy grail. Most of these old soldiers who "collected" during the actual
war were usually still interested in militaria long after the war was finished. So they went to fairs and flea markets in the 60's and 70's and bought (unaware) fake memorablia that they added to their little collection.

Regards, Wim
 
the banalaty of the term vet-aquired

Vet bring backs are indeed not the holy grail. Most of these old soldiers who "collected" during the actual
war were usually still interested in militaria long after the war was finished. So they went to fairs and flea markets in the 60's and 70's and bought (unaware) fake memorablia that they added to their little collection.

Regards, Wim
Hi Wim
I cant agree with the unaware part. There have been specific books on fake nazi memorabilia since the 60`s, and the topic of reproductions has been mentioned in collectors books for as long as well.
I cant comment on the naivety of collectors back then, but it was certainly not so that in the 60-70`s collectors were not aware that this stuff was copied, and got caught out by someone "smuggling" fakes into a show back then. Everyone who collected must have been aware of the fake market, and as we are finding out today, thanks to the Internet, many dealers who were around back then, did a good job of stocking up on them.

One part of your comment is interesting, that being that vets, who "collected" during the war, carried on collecting after. This would probably include a great deal of them wouldn't it, meaning that they loose the "vet" part from any story they add to the item, simply because they are nothing more than collectors who acquired items through friends, shows, etc.. the same as collectors do today. So the validity attached by many collectors to the word vet, needs to be rethought, unless of course the vet that sold them their items, did of course only collect until May 1945 and then never touch anything after.. :001_cool:
 
I think a few of them were really unaware. I know some old guys, now well into their 8O's who were stationed in Germany one or two years after the war. They brought back home some good memorabilia directly from the source. But what is important is that they always kept a general interest in war souvernirs and probably bought things when they saw them -in a later stage of their life- when walking for instance on a local flea market in their hometown.
I think many fake items got into their 'bring-backs' this way. Another story I often hear is that they switched very often their souvernirs between old friends; a Luger for a dagger, a dagger for a helmet etc... So it is clearly not always the story that those liberated items were kept safely for decades and never changed hands.

And yes sometimes I'm really surprised when I meet very old collectors/ vet's who never in their life were aware of fake stuff. In at least two cases, I was the first person who told them that those "nazi things" are heavy faked since the end of the war. They read many books about WW2 in their life but not a single reference work about collecting and detecting the fakes.


Regards, Wim
 
It would be useful for this badge if that collector RonR admits that he made a mistake.
 
It would be useful for this badge if that collector RonR admits that he made a mistake.

you have more chance of hell freezing over or a leopard changing its spots!!

imho he still believes its good and i feel this is his stance on more than this one HJ badge!

after all if it came from a vet purchase then it has GOT to be original ! :001_rolleyes:
 
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