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  1. #1

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    HJ Membership Badge M1/25 RZM

    Hi, in need of some help and hoping to get some honest genuine answers. When my grand father passed away I received a suitcase full of WWII German artifacts (on reflection I suspect he left this to me due to my own military career)... the above photographed HJ badge just being one (leather belt, Kriegsmarine foraging cap, heer wehrpas, several copies of Die Kriegsmarine, Kriegsmarine uniform buttons but to name a few items) of the items. I know nothing about this item but if its anything like the others then I believe it to be very genuine. All I can say is that it appears to be made from an alloy, possible aluminium, paint work look good and has M1/25 along with RZM marked on rear. I can email the photographs if required for closer inspection.

    Thanks

    DSC_0365.jpg DSC_0363.jpg


  2. #2

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    Hi all those who have viewed this thread, I'm looking for some knowledge on this item, i.e. is it fake or is it real, who made it, when it was made, where it was made, what does RZM mean, what do the numbers mean etc etc... I would think someone here would be able to provide this information or point me to someone who knows about such things?

  3. #3
    Hi,

    Hold your mouse pointer over RZM for the full term Painted HJ membership badges appeared late-war so they are legitimate items. Give it a little time and I'm sure that the thread will be seen by the guys who can help further.

  4. #4

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    Hi after some research and testing in the lab I have discovered that the badge is made from good quality zinc rather than an alloy zinc of the late war period, this said the piece is post 1942 but how far after this date is difficult to ascertain. The M1/25 was registered to Rudolf Reiling of Pforzheim... the only thing now is to discover a valuation, can someone help with this information.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by 01drf View Post
    and testing in the lab
    Hello and welcome to the Forum. The Lab?
    You need to understand how these items were made. Testing a piece like this will and can never lead to anything. I dont know what you mean by Lab testing, but the quality of the metal will have absoluetly nothing to do with it being made in 1901, 1941 or 1991.
    Example: We know that badges prior to 1940 (not from 1942 on) were made from MESSING, not bronze, not copper, and not Tombak. Period articles tell us this, BUT... makers and sub-contractors used what they had, this is why we find them made in Iron as well, and who knows if they all used Messing, maybe some cut corners and used Tombak. They cut corners with the Iron cross and used Messing for the core, even after 1940 some makers still used other metals for the iron cross. So even if there was a super machine to stick each badge into, and press PRINTOUT, we would still not be able to determine anything from the results, nothing concrete anyway.

    I dont know how you reached the opinion that late war made zinc items are supposed to be of a higher quality metal? in any case its nonsense, and only an opinion that can also not be used to support any conclusion.

    As for the maker, just because the number M1/xyz is on the back, is no guarantee that they made it, the time period this was made, and especially the maker, point towards a M2 or sub-contractor. It also plays no part in the value of the piece as well, if it were an early hoffstätter or Ges. Gesch HJ messing badge from 1933 then yes, but these war produced versions are valued as what they are, and the MM plays no important role.

    They are not as common as the Messing enameled versions obviously, but less sought after. The European market prices for these seem to range between €30-€50 in the US around $50-70.- depending who is selling them.

    You did say you wanted honest and genuine answers

  6. #6

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    Hi, its very clear how little you know about carbon dating... and this is my line of work, hence in the lab, I feel your attempting to protect your amateur detective work which I will assume is "book" based.

  7. #7
    You aren't under attack 01drf.

    In fairness you didn't say anything about carbon-dating in your initial thrust. Indeed, you didn't mention any lab work at all. You simply said that you had looked at the metal and that the paint looked 'good'.

    Could you go into more detail on how you arrived at your ostensibly very precise dating?

    Going back to your point on the metal used for your badge: as Metallwarenfabrik points out, you would need access to period records to establish which manufacturer used which metal and when during the period in order to say what you did about the manufacture date for your badge. You seem certain of your findings which leads me to believe that you have such period records?

    Your findings and the way in which you posed your initial question are sounding extremely odd at the moment...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by 01drf View Post
    Hi, its very clear how little you know about carbon dating... and this is my line of work, hence in the lab, I feel your attempting to protect your amateur detective work which I will assume is "book" based.
    Jaysus....... how the flipping hell do i answer this one simple, for the sake of all the good folk here, i dont.
    Top of the mornin`to ya Sire.

  9. #9

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    I should stay out of this one , HOWEVER ; with the members involved ... "PLEASE" keep personal "JABS" at each other out of OPEN FORUM .
    If you have the need to debate an issue and "sling mud" at each other , please leave the Jabs in a personal message .

  10. #10

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    well said joe, i like these painted zinc badges though they are not popular as the enamel ones and therefore dont demand the same money but still very nice

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