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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metallwarenfabrik View Post
    Prove that its a fake? WHY ? if anyone calls out one of my items as Fake, it is up to ME, to be able to explain why it is not a fake, not up to joe bloggs to tell me why its fake, especially not seeing as these Puffies have grand websites, and dont forget, Offer Certificates of Authentic for an extra price ! ??!! shows you what their COAs are really worth, if they can list a P.O.S like this badge is, and still have the flipping audacity top offer to back it up in writing for an extra fee!
    I`ve always thought that`s exactly what should happen.
    If someone said that they thought an item in my personal collection was a fake/repro then i would`nt tell them to prove it. I`d research that particular item myself to see either way.
    The same principle should apply even more to `dealers`, as a lot of collectors (especially new ones) buy items from these people in good faith.

  2. #12

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    Well, an another "polemic" item found in a well known shop, this time Philipp Militaria...

    Hitler-Jugend / HJ - Mitgliedsabzeichen - Philipp Militaria
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #13

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    there have been more and more bad items appearing on sites that have a good reputation, perhaps hard times are making them take a few risks its totally unacceptable as many trust these dealers and would not think of questioning anything found on their sites. but again this is such a common fake there is no excuse whatsoever

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by stuart View Post
    best part, i emailed butchek to tell him he was selling a fake and i had a return email asking what referance i had to prove its a fake, as if he doesnt already know the thing is bad. its not as if its one of those items people argue over, everyone in the collecting community knows these are bad, just a bullshit excuse and another dealer losses credability

    these dealers are getting a joke but people will still trust them 100% instead of doing their own research
    Just wanted to add the footnote that the badge was removed from sale as a consequence of you getting in touch Stu.

  5. #15
    You know what i think happens here.... just my 5 cents.....
    I think, there are certain groups of Dealers, what i mean is that people like Butschek Militaria, and maybe Phillip Militaria, well they might only have a few other sites that they look to for "guidance" like for instance Collectors Guild, of Ruptured Duck, so when they see these other sites, maybe even friends of theirs? list a piece like this fake HJ badge, or the RZM GES.GESCH fake HJ that started this thread off, well maybe they just "assume" that its original... so... when the small man in the street, (you & i) tell them its fake, or post about it, and if they see it.. they get mad, because of maybe 2 things:
    1-they believe that it is real, coz their friends sell them, so they think we are just trying to damage their Rep.
    2-the get mad because "they" were caught out, whilst their friends were not, and actually sold the bad item?

    so they either feel like a whipping boy, or they really do believe that all this post war crap is genuine?

    The other option would be to say that they knew all along that they were selling crap, and are mad at themselves for getting caught out, and shown up, so in turn get mad at the people who found them out? but thats just a guess, and probably so far from reality that i should possibly delete it from this post, later today or in a few weeks..

    If this whole hobby is a learning game, and the only way we can all end up happy, and benefit each other would be to share and help each other, then why get mad? why not just accept new info that you hear? if its bad info, then surely you could could put a good case together and challenge it, in turn, making the original poster look like an Imbecile for starting a thread saying that a genuine item was a fake?

    edit:
    Maybe the owner of Butschek-Antiques would care to share some more information pertaining to the following which they just sold as Authentic, (HJ-HOCHLANDLAGER 1936) yet a great many collectors have difficulty in accepting as anything other than a fantasy badge?
    It really would be GREAT, if one day, one of these Big Dealers, who seem to have no problem listing this controversial stuff all the time, would take just a few minutes out of their busy Hunting-for-relics schedule, and share some info with the community, after all, it IS, the community that are feeding them, paying their plane tickets to the SOS and MAX, paying for their clothes, putting a bowl of porridge on their table, filling their Jeeps up, paying their dental care, website fees, cigarettes and basically everything else......
    The CUSTOMER-CARE with most of these Dealers stops after the PayPal verification mail of FUNDS SENT !
    sorry it sounds mean, REALITY usually is!!



    Last edited by Jo Rivett; 29th June 2012 at 05:30 AM. Reason: added the HJ-Hochlandlager fantasy badge bit

  6. #16
    Do you know who that person was Antonio (the one who passed the info to Butschek)? PM if you'd prefer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Heran View Post
    ....There was also the case of a Gold wound Badge. He took it out of the web page as soon as he was told, without saying thanks to the person, who sent the information.....

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallwarenfabrik View Post
    ....after the DJ cap "trick" that came from eBay then landed up on his site with a badge attached 2 weeks alter, i started to probe, and after his replies to me concerning "what happed", well i dont buy them, and i dont buy him anymore and i have no intention of visiting his site either.
    What exactly happened with the cap?

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    What exactly happened with the cap?
    Here is the old thread

    I`d have to consult my notes, but if memory serves, the response was, that it did not come from "that auction house", well at least not from the seller , but was rather acquired through a picker - middleman - seller - etc.... which after looking at the very short period of around 2 weeks, From being listed at "that auction site - sans insignia" to being sold, then to being re-listed on "this dealers site" with the insignia added ... it seemed highly strange that the item went from what it was sold as, to what it was re-listed as, coming through a middle man? when the period of time in between it selling at "that auction house" and being re-listed was only some 14 days....
    A very small "verbrechen" indeed, but when the normal "Collector" man in the street is "caught" polishing an EK inbetween sales, or "adding" this and that, they are usually slapped from one side of a Forum to the next, examples of this can be found on WAF and most other forums all the time, so Why should a dealer be treated any different?

  9. #19
    Mr Butschek has been in touch. After initial reluctance he signalled a desire to respond to some of the points raised on the thread but said that he didn't want to join the forum to do so. I offered to post any responses he might wish readers of the thread to see. He sent some and asked me to check their grammar and send them back for his approval with a view to me publishing them here. I replied to that email on 3.7 but haven't heard from him since. Without his permission I am unable to post his responses.

    Just a general point: this thread is one of hundreds, possibly one of 10 million on any number of forums which discuss fakes. It is a legitimate subject for discussion and has the aim of informing collectors and any other interested party about the fakes which plague our hobby. As such, this thread has a legitimate purpose. It is not the purpose of the thread to make Mr Butschek look bad but rather to pass general comment on the subject of fakes using a badge from Mr Butscheks online store as an example of the problems. Indeed, the thread title expresses surprise that Mr Butschek would miss such an obvious fake. During the discussion some other matters arose and we await Mr Butscheks response which I will be glad to publish should he get in touch.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    he signalled a desire to respond to some of the points raised on the thread but said that he didn't want to join the forum to do so.
    If they are missing the "easy" fakes, what about the really good ones? if the easy fakes come with a 15 buck COA, then the good fakes will come with a vet story? or video tape?
    Surely if he wants to say anything, then he can take the 3 minutes to register and say it? or is it a case of "I am too good to mix with the common collector, to waste my time talking to the garden snails who feed me, but are also so cruel that when they see me put out snail poison they dare to publicly say something? warn other snails of my poison? "

    Who cares about the snail poison, honestly.. if things need to be said, then they should be said - Garry, i wouldn't play the go-between at all. If any wrong has been said, then it can be deleted, peoples fingers wrapped, even cut off, and if this Dealer wants to add something, let him register and add it, same as you, me, or anyone here would have to if we saw something on another forum about items we owned.

    After all, "anyone can make a mistake" even Dealers are human, i drank bleach as a kid, thinking it was cool-aid ! see? it happens..........

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