Withdrawn RZM Licenses

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Hi All,

I am just having a look at the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM vom 1935 and saw in November and December a few M1 licences, which were taken back. Just a few examples:

07.12.1935 Ausgabe 31
M 1/66
M 1/29
M 1/22
M 1/41
M 1/31
23.11.1935 Ausgabe 30
M 1/38
M 1/64
M 1/70

Unfortunatelly, I do not have more from the RZM itself after 1935. SO I have a few questions:

- Did one of those makers recover their Licenses? I mean, not particularly those but ANY.

- Did any Maker produce badges even after losing their licenses?

- Are there also Mittleilungsblätter for 1936 onwards?

Thanks very much.

Best Regards

Antonio
 
It is possible the one or the other concern may have gotten back his number. This then most often (99%)
was then the old number. I do not have time to check if indeed any of the concerns got it back!

Yes, there are Mitteilungsblätter for 1936 and onwards. Up through the end of 1944 for sure!

I am not a collector of badges, so I do not know if any of them did produce after the date they lost
the permit.
 
Hi All,
1 Did one of those makers recover their Licenses? I mean, not particularly those but ANY.

2 Did any Maker produce badges even after losing their licenses?

3 Are there also Mittleilungsblätter for 1936 onwards?

Antonio
HI Antonio
see images for more.

1-No, of the mentioned M1/ makers, none of them are mentioned again as having the license back, and they would need to, because in the quoted numbers, above each it says that the company has no longer got a license, meaning that nobody should order from them again. (official insignia for M1/ - it could be that makers had more than just a M1/ and could still make other, official things)

There are examples of when a makers number appears as withdrawn, but then 2-4 weeks later, a new announcement is made saying that the RZM got the number wrong, (and then they correct it) or stating something like "Maker XXX was announced as loosing his number for [whatever reason] .. but they actually handed the number in on their own accord." - in other words, when the RZM made a mistake, they corrected it later, in-print. This shows us that it was like a Wall Of Shame list, and if a maker did, find his name and M1/ number in the announcement paper, UNFAIRLY, surely there would be another mention by the RZM if they got back the number, or if the RZM made a mistake. They would surely not just have been quiet about it. Otherwise it would be negative for the company, to still have their name in-print as loosing the license...

2-We will never know the answer to this. In the beginning, around the very early 30`s, makers, even those who had a RZM contract,(for certain items) were sometimes doing what they wanted, and producing badges they should not have been, so i imagine this kind of thing went on in the early years, but after the RZM clamped down, and got tough - around the end of 1934, to mid-1935, i dont see how a maker could loose his license, be mentioned in the RZMmtbl. as having no more permission to produce [a certain item(s)] - and then continue. There are, anyway no mentioned cases of this happening with M1/ makers. (Maybe with others, textile, etc it happened as was mentioned i dont know)

If you add up all the LOST RZM licenses (all licenses, sellers, grosshändler, manufactures - all kinds) between mid-1934-to early 1936, you will reach over 2000 !! And when you compare these figures, to those after, (as well as dates) we see exactly when the RZM started to get tough. Surely before this time it was very hard for the RZM to "Control" all their over 100,000 license holders.. but after this time, there was surely not as much Foolery going on as before. I would suggest, that any maker who is mentioned in-print, after the RZMmtbl. came out, - as loosing the license - and who is never mentioned again - did never get back the license.
(This does not mean that a M1/ maker who lost, or gave back, the license, did not longer make small badges, for example, or even small NS-badges.. it happened, but it was just not official NS badges they produced.)

3-Yes, i have not all, but many, but if i look at how many people have actually viewed them here since i posted them (same goes for the UM-DuZ) then it is not worth my time to scan and upload. I was busy after i started that, but it is something i will not continue because the interest is just not there. The UM is equally as interesting, and all of them are uploaded here. (but how many have viewed them in one year ? not many!!!) I have them all uploaded on my site too, but the sad reality is, since over 1 year now, how many "customers" or people have clicked on the separate PDFs to read or even look at them? 3... yes, THREE PEOPLE! About 300-500 visitors each day, sometimes 10,000 clicks on the RESEARCH page each month, yet in one year, only THREE people have bothered to open up the PDFs?

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Hi Jo and Wilhelm,

Thansk you very much for your answers and for your time.

Well, checking at the "not ending" Lists of licenses taken back, anyone could get easy an idea of the huge mess going on in between 1934 and 1935. Specially with "cloth" related Items, the lists are veeery long, in comparison with Metallwaren.

Jo, you mentioned that some makers were producing small badges even after their licenses were taken back. In your opinion, would they do that with their own marks, or were they selling their badges to other makers like Hilfsbetriebs? I know, it is a complicated question.

About the uploads. Well, I am sorry to hear, but looking at the numbers it is maybe too much work for the results that you get. I find it particularly great to have a look at these publications. I have them in my mobile so for sure I am not bored on my way to work. Somethings I check it at home and specially when I have to visit my "political" family in Thüringen or Karlsruhe.

Anyway, thanks for your effort and help. Always appreciated.

Regards

Antonio
 
  1. Well, checking at the "not ending" Lists of licenses taken back, anyone could get easy an idea of the huge mess going on in between 1934 and 1935. Specially with "cloth" related Items, the lists are veeery long, in comparison with Metallwaren.
  2. Jo, you mentioned that some makers were producing small badges even after their licenses were taken back. In your opinion, would they do that with their own marks,
  3. or were they selling their badges to other makers like Hilfsbetriebs? I know, it is a complicated question.

  1. Yes, this would be a great project for cloth collectors, and buckles and daggers etc.. to make a short list of all the makers who lost the RZM permission to produce a certain item, at a certain time. That way we have a better idea of what can be 100% fake straight away (for example the DJ shooting badges marked M1/66 - a badge introduced some 4 years after the maker already lost that license number) and yes, some makers of items like Textile etc..many many lost the permission.
  2. Antonio, what i mean is this: If you wanted to make Official NSDAP badges, say the HJ membership badge etc etc.. then you need a M1/ license. If you loose this license, or just do not want it, this does not mean that you dont make badges anymore, it just means that you are not allowed to make the badges that were official, that would require a M1/ license. It does not mean that you cannot make other NS-related badges that were not official. If a maker did give his number back, there must be many reasons why, maybe too small a company, maybe just a small maker who had no time to always get orders of 1000, 10,000 etc of the same badge. Of course it could also mean that the company did no longer make badges, but went into making other items. This would surely apply to makers after the late 1930`s who possibly concentrated on other items, and therefore did not need the M1/ license anymore... we will never know exactly why. But i would say, after 1935-1936, if the maker did loose, or give back, the RZM license then he surely did not continue to produce the same items without the license.
  3. A M1/ manufacturer, would not sell to a Hilfsbetrieb, if anything it would be the other way around, but how the payment was made i dont know. Stocks of certain makers were also "liquidated" through the RZM/LDO from companies that later went bust, or closed due to having no more workers.. Otto Schickle would be a good example here in 1941, but we dont know why all his Third Reich stock was liquidated and sold through the LDO. Yes the maker would either put his makers mark on a badge (if he was still making non-official badges after he gave back the license, or no marks at all.) To find no marks at all is very common, although we may think that every maker would like to Free Advertise with a makers mark on an item, i dont think they saw this the same way with all badges/Awards. If we look back from 1900, in Austria and Germany, (until today in europe) many nice, well produced awards and badges, have no makers details...
 
Thansk very much for your answer Jo, I owe you a beer or two. Hopefully with the Munich Project.

We are almost in 2013 and there are still so many doubts and interrogants over that period...

Take care.

Regards

Antonio
 
Hi Jo, I would be more than happy to take on the job of compiling a list of makers who lost licences. Would you be happy to send me (when you have time of course) any further Mitteilungsblätter that you have?
 
But the information in the Mitteilungsblätter is the best one can get.
It may in some cases be not the whole truth but it is a wonderful start.
At least you can sort out some fakes via these Miteilungsblätter.
Just as Jo said: (for example the DJ shooting badges marked M1/66 - a badge introduced some 4 years after the maker already lost that license number)
 
Yes, I think Wim makes a fair point. If we don't have them all then such a list might cause more problems than it solves.
 
a question remains, if a company for example m1/66 fritz kohm who we see so many dj badges from, lost his licence then it is assumed that all dj badges by him are fake, but could it be that he had made these prior to losing his licence,if he did would they have been destoyed or allowed to be sold but not allowed to make any more.

not trying to justify these badges at all just asking the question because if a company did lose their licence surely any badge already produced would be sold or would they be destroyed ?????
 
Hi Guys..back from the dead, and if last Saturday was not the night of the living dead, then i dont know what is!

If the set of Mbl. d. RZM is not complete, it does not make sense.
Better said: the RZM not even was always consequent in informing about the lost licenses, nor about the new licenses!
Hi Wim. Yes i agree with you, but, for the example used on this thread (M1/66) you will understand where i am coming from, from my reply in this post, below in yellow.

a question remains, if a company for example m1/66 fritz kohm who we see so many dj badges from, lost his licence then it is assumed that all dj badges by him are fake, but could it be that he had made these prior to losing his licence
Hi Stu, no, we are talking about a period of more than 4 years between his license being withdrawn, and the invention/introduction of this specific badge, so no, absolutely no.

Wim has mentioned, a point, but in direct relationship to this particular maker, M1/66, the point is not valid.
If you study the way that the first three years of the RZMMtbl. are constructed, built up, what kinds of info they contain, and how it is all presented, with direct attention paid to makers mentioned in a bad light - i mean makers who are mentioned as not being allowed to produce/sell this or that item, (for whatever reason) if a mistake was made, it WAS, corrected by the RZM some weeks, or a month later.

You have to look at it like this. From June 1934, the RZM has become so large (one of the largest employers in the Reich - or so they said) that the RZMMtbl. became a necessity! After the first few, all licensed makers, and sellers were obliged to read them. If a maker, like M1/66, was mentioned at the beginning, as now having no more license, that would mean that everyone who was doing business with them at that time, would read this, everyone would know that they could no longer order through/from them. Even the RZM inspectors would know this.

Lets say now that this is a typing error, or a mistake or whatever. Suddenly, at the beginning of the RZM period (the actual beginning was much earlier, but i mean beginning in relationship to the RZM announcement papers, that were NEW, and that all sellers and makers were obliged to buy and read!) Maker M1/66 sees that he has been mentioned as loosing his license ... and if this was not true, he would have been climbing the walls, as this would have meant nothing else than him not being able to make, (or supply) official NSDAP badges anymore. At the beginning of the Hype, the money making period....the good early years when badge makers were confronted with HUGE orders......Do you not think he would have complained? A new Trade Magazine, that basically only the trade is reading, and a mention like this would sink him. If it were not true, the RZM would most certainly have published a small correction later in the papers, as they did with many makers who were wrongly mentioned. They would have needed to - they did many times with other makers in the beginning, even sellers and cloth producers....
So the thought, assumption, or idea that it was a mistake, and they never complained? (or that it is not corrected in-print) is not one worth contemplating. (in 1944, yes, but in 1935 when business was great, no)

Lets move onto something else. When you study one maker, like M1/66. Follow them from as far back as you can, through the early RZM years, look at what they made, look at how they were making the items in relationship to the period, and in relationship to other makers and their markings, and what they were doing around that time, you can quite easily place these items into years, and sometimes into months.
In order to assume that M1/66 did not loose their license, or got it back, or whatever.... history would show us this. We would find other items, in the case of the M1/ license that they held, Small official badges. Now when we look at genuine items by M1/66, we do not find any made after the period they lost their license. There are no other badges that we can connect to them after the date mentioned.

Now lets assume that they got their M1/66 license back in 1937, or 1938 in time to start producing DJ badges, marked M1/66. Lets assume that the RZM forgot to mention this as well, and lets assume that M1/66 did not care that they had been mentioned as loosing the license, and although have it back now in 1937...did not care that it was not "official", in-print, for all sellers, RZM controllers and sundry to see. As far fetched as these assumptions are, lets just say it happened. OK, they have the old license back now, and they start making DJ badges. WHAT ELSE DID THEY MAKE - now that they have their license back? There were too many makers of the DJ badge in order for it to be a necessity that they needed to produce them, and only them (them as in the DJ badges)... because if this is the way we are going to think, and accept the few assumptions that help us in assuming this, then we would need to explain WHY? why they came back from the dead, why they made only DJ badges, and no other small official insignia, because once you follow them, it is clear that after late 1935 they never made a single badge anymore. Except of course the fake DJ badges. :)

I allow myself to use the word Fake, because i know that they are. All i am trying to do here, is show you all why they did not make them in relationship to the time period and other badges. (small things we should rope into a debate on subjects like this) If i wanted my dead cat to be alive, i could convince myself forever that he was, it would all be in my mind though, and not relevant to facts, because Pussy-Pussy has not touched his saucer of milk in 5 years. And thats basically it. I keep telling myself that a small amount of milk is missing each morning because he visits at night, when i am asleep.....because, it is what i choose to believe! :)))))))) No i dont, i dont even like cats, thats just a silly comparison to the DJ M1/66 badges :)


  • M1/66 is mentioned loud as clear as loosing their M1/66 license. Thats a fact, it is printed. Any speculation that 4 years later they got their license back and made ONLY DJ badges needs lots of factual weight behind it, just because some folk want to believe, is not enough when all the facts sank the ship in the harbor, 4 years ago.
  • No official badges are known from them after the period that they loose their number.
  • Suddenly, around 1938-1939 they "come back", and make DJ badges, and...nothing else...?? (i hope some folk can see how weak this assumption is when all facts are considered)
  • Strange? no, it is only strange if you are going to try and think up "maybe`s" as to how and why they "could" be real.

So history shows us in-print, what happened. The items we find today made by M1/66 (the genuine items/badges) confirm the time period that the items were made, and made up until, and NOT AFTER THAT!

So in the case of M1/66, we need to just read facts, and study the genuine items - it`s basically all laid out for us. We go wrong when we wont accept whats in front of us. Lots of time there are not as many facts and evidence as there is here, so assuming and debating is needed. With these, well buy one, break it up and you will soon see that it cant be real :)

You know the saying, It is easier to fool someone, than to convince them they have been fooled!

I realize that not everyone is on the same planet as myself when it comes to small badges, but just wait a while, and see for yourself. I will be taking this to a whole new level, and opening up doors to rooms you never knew were there.
 
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