Hitler Youth achievement badges (Leistungsabzeichen) marked with an S

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Clyde Davis has Authenticated them as being genuine (page 29, Vol 21 N°2 of the two part series about HJ-Leistungsabzeichen in the Military Advisor.) A few members here have posted pictures to a few made either By M1/35 or M1/101. I don't agree with him on this issue, and will try and show you why below. I believe that all the "S" marked Leistungsabzeichen are post war fakes, made in a horrible way, using a method that was not used in their construction. Forget the fact that the numbers are (fishy smell) similar on both maker marked versions of these. Forget the fact that the letter "S" cant actually mean anything and forget the terrible workmanship on these who were made years before by the same makers in the correct way, marked the correct way and using the correct materials. Lets just focus on one such badge in question.



On this thread, i pointed out that one was recently up for sale for Euro48- described as Genuine. Well i bought it. The seller is adamant that it is genuine, i had already informed him that it was a fake before i paid for it, but that i wanted it to take apart, and would not be asking for my money back. He still believes that it`s the real deal. Anyway, long story short, lets get down to the facts, followed by a strip-show.

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Much lighter than any badge i have, the two part construction reveals straight away that there is something fishy here. As mentioned, HJ Proficiency badges were not made in this way, so red flags should go up already. If you only have obverse and reverse pictures, as are on most dealers sites, it`s quite hard to see that all this is, is a hunk of horribly cast aluminum stuck onto a thin sheet of copper, and then individually whacked with consecutive numbers, by hand. The sheet of copper that it`s stuck to, has been crudely stamped out, with the edges still sharp and in places off-center. You will also note from the following pictures that the hunk of aluminum does not even correctly fit onto the separate sheet of copper. (observe the tail area of the below pictures) You will also note, that both the M1/35 and M1/101 badges, which are both constructed in this same way (read the MA article mentioned above, where reference is made to the M1/101 being a two part construction) show the same horrible flaws and off-center backing plate, if you will. How this could be factually and convincingly backed up is unclear to me, especially by anyone who has a few Period examples of the HJ Proficiency badge and is acquainted with the craftsmanship of these HJ Proficiency badges.

A horizontal view looking directly from the front and back, gives you an idea of the horrible casting, and of course the copper surfboard it`s resting on.

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Lets get Naked ... :pound:

... or those of you familiar with the cult film "Pulp Fiction",
Lets go to work on him, with pliers and a blowtorch.

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Will it burn ... ?

No silly, it`s a hunk of aluminum, not cheap tin like this melted one. I held the same torch over that one for 3 seconds before it melted, and bust it`s doughnut. On this one, i held the torch over it for a full 1 minute ... and ... nothing.

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For those of you who insist that your "S" marked badges are real, you have to explain the following:


  • How two separate makers who had been making these for years (before these particular serial numbers,) and made them after (as higher numbers from these makers are known, and known to be good) could both come up with the same idea to suddenly, and for a short period, make two-part versions, in horribly cast aluminum (not struck as originals were, cast) with stupid copper backing plates, and then let a dislexic employee loose on them with a hammer and some stamping tools.
  • You will also need to explain why the serial number on the M1/35 marked badges is on the left side of the arrow, and not on the right as it usually is with known Originals.

If you can explain these few points in a plausible manner, then i`d love to hear from you. :thumb:
 

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I have taken the one from the Military Advisor, and enlarged the photo, compared alongside to my one, even though they are supposedly made by two different makers, the reverse copper sheeting shows the exact same mistake/flaw on both. The one that user Patric uploaded here, also shows the same flaw that the die used to stamp out the thin copper sheeting left. I mentioned that the actual aluminum cast part was horrible, well the copper sheet backing plate is just as bad, it looks like it was cut out by hand, with blunt scissors by someone who has Parkinson's :sad:



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In any case, add this together with the last few questions on the post above, and i personally don't see how you could convince yourself that they were period. I guess people will though. Shown in the recent Military Advisor as real, on sites like Becks Militaria as Real, and the one on this thread was sold to me as real. A fleeting thought, might be for someone who is good at putting Articles and the like together, to re-write the complete Leistungsabzeichen Article for the Military Advisor, including the First Hollowback badges, adding the vital part about distinguishing between fakes by viewing the sides, and including a good section on these terrible, multi-construction nonsense "S" marked badges. The only thing that has really changed for me since stripping this badge, is that i no longer believe that Rudolf Souval had anything to do with them, they are unterste Schublade quality. (Quality from the very bottom drawer)


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Once the copper surfboard has been removed, you realize why it`s needed. The badge is so thin and weak, that you can literally roll it up like a bottle-cap in your fingers. Anyway, that's all i have to say about this. I hope you have all enjoyed watching me get sexy with a Euro48.- laughable fake. Donations for my time and effort (three digit minimum:good:) can be handled through PM




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The last oddity with the serial numbers, for those of you that picked up on it, that being the number 8 is larger than the others, and looks like it has seen better days, can easily be explained. It started life out as the number 9, making the badge 199999. But because of the problems explained above, (dyslexic workers, blunt tools and Parkinson's) it has been over-stamped using the number 9 again, changed at a 180° angle, giving the impression that it is indeed number 8 and not number 9. We see through this ploy though, and have here not only a surfing hunk of aluminum pretending to be a noble award, but also number 9 pretending to be number 8. How low can you go.


:yo:
 

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A very good article Jo (great graphics again by the way). It's difficult to disagree with your logic, particularly the angle on why two makers would suddenly decide to produce poor quality badges before going back to normal production later. The die flaw linking badges together is also a good spot.

The 'S' is infurating though because it's one of those things where we think 'why oh why would a faker add something to a badge which wasn't ordinarily there'? Possibly to confuse us, possibly because he was confused? Possibly because it was a convenient way to fix the copper layer a little more securely? I don't know but I think you've made a very good case against these 'S' badges being authentic TR.

Does Mr Davis go into any detail on the 'S'. I'm assuming not because I'm sure you would have mentioned it.
 
Many thanks Jo for the well researched and written article. Some collectors will stick to their beliefs but you bring light into the ever-increasing darkness of collecting.
 
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Garry, i think if you look at the basics, Paul mentioned the numbering a few times now, and he would be correct, these are all hand stamped and skew. On the M1/35 badge the numbers are on the wrong side of the arrow too. The aluminum part is cast, and badly (<--see thumbnail left) , the copper backing stabilizing sheet is stuck on !!! The best though, is when you have this in your hand, it screams out "I dropped out of a Xmas-cracker, pick me up i`m yours".

The "S" i would imagine is to confuse. There are similar letters on other fake badges, the Womens Flugmeldedienst is one that springs to mind, Only made by Josef Preissler in Pforzheim, with raised mm and recipients individual number. They are also "around" marked with "ES" which is supposedly for Ersazt-stück, which i don't buy for 1 minute.(The numbering on these are also always almost the same, this really should be a dead giveaway, or at least raise such a high flag that it would need to be properly, and convincingly explained before moving on and selling it as real)

The only Help i can give, is, stick to the Facts, stick to History and what we know, and you should be fine. The moment you have to start thinking up, or making up reasons for certain Odd attributes, that is usually the time to put your wallet back in your pocket and walk away.

btw, Military Advisor article mention below. Yes yes, S could mean silver.. it could also mean sucker, stupid, sloth, slim shady, sugar, the possibilities are endless.[/SIZE]
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:) Here's an M1/101 you'll like
What you only see when you have it in hand, but from that link above, can see in the pics as well, is that the backing plate/surfboard, is razor sharp in places, does not fit snugly under the aluminum cast piece, and would cause damage to the guys uniform, and shred his fingers every time he tried to put it on/take it off. You could give one of these to a blind man, and ask him if he "felt" that it was a period piece and he would say No-way.. he would also be needing a few plasters... :lol:
 
Cast Aluminium ... i`ve said a a few times here, but the badge below, currently on sale at Becks does Justice to this... Not just cast, but badly cast..

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To view detailed pictures of an Original M1/35 badge, see this thread.

The differences are obvious really
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I have a badge that is identical to yours but with #207682 that I have had for 40 years. I know that does not, in itself, guarantee anything; but the edges are not rough and it looks like it has a silver thick paint on the front with the bronze back. And it has the "S". When I first heard about the "S" I thought it was obviously a fake until I looked at mine and now I'm not so sure. Why in the world would a reproducer make something so unorthodox with the rest of good quality? I am replying to Garry's M1/101 badge.....
 
I have a badge that is identical to yours but with #207682 that I have had for 40 years. I know that does not, in itself, guarantee anything; but the edges are not rough and it looks like it has a silver thick paint on the front with the bronze back. And it has the "S". When I first heard about the "S" I thought it was obviously a fake until I looked at mine and now I'm not so sure. Why in the world would a reproducer make something so unorthodox with the rest of good quality? I am replying to Garry's M1/101 badge.....
Garrys link to the M1/101 badge has been directly linked to these M1/35 badges, so you are replying to my thread as well, and by what you are saying/asking, means that you have read, but not understood, this Thread, or the basic laid out facts. Or you dont want to because you have had this fake for 40 years. ?
I probably did forget to mention a few things, one being that Originals were made 70-80 years ago, people from all walks of life in many different countries have been reproducing awards since May 1945 (over 65 years) in a number of different ways. ..so having an item for 40, 50 or even 60 years cannot even be a contemplating point, IF... you have:

•an understanding of how these were made (if you read some posts here you would, for free)
•if you have read and understood this thread


Can you come up with a plausible answer to the very basic questions in posts 2 & 3? or is this going to turn into a "i want it to be real, even though everything rational points towards the polish cats litter-tray casting method?" There is a big difference between people having opinions on any one item, and people having the FACTS laid out clear for them. If you still believe that your 40 year old badge is real, then you are welcome to debunk this thread/article, but you must use Facts. I have laid out the framework, and the factual questions that need to be answered ... until you try and explain all of the questions, your opinion on this subject is worthless.

I have tried to choose my words carefully here, but weighing up what you just wrote.. on a thread which has cost me time and money, all in the name of trying to enlighten collectors and correct the fact that they were recently given the thumbs up in the MA, and hopefully give people a better understanding of the way in which they are constructed.. well, it`s like a giant slap in the face. Thank-you very much indeed.
:thumbdown:

...and the last part ...
Why in the world would a reproducer make something so unorthodox
They just do, i don't know why, possibly to snag collectors who think the same way as you do?... but when you start concentrating on banal oddities like that, and use them as a "its so bizarre that it just could be original.." then you might well be the right person that i have been looking for, for years, to unload my collection of fakes and fantasies off on, some are marked, Waffen-SS, Wolfschanze-RZM, Luftwaffe-H, Halle-HJ, Gestapo etc etc (see pic) there are also a few more floating about marked BM/122.




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WOW!!! It has taken me almost a day to reply to this thread. I thought I had joined this forum to learn some things about reproductions and to make some comments where appropriate. The vitriolic response that I received from my simple comment took me by surprise because I did read the thread and had made a comment earlier that I appreciated the research that goes into separating real from fake. My many years of collecting and research have uncovered many anomalies that I had hoped to share in an open forum.
 
When I first heard about the "S" I thought it was obviously a fake until I looked at mine and now I'm not so sure. badge.....
Mijke, maybe you got a few words mixed up in your initial post? The way i read it, is that you have had one for 40 years, always thought it was a fake, until you have now "looked at yours" and now think its original... or are not sure anymore that it is a fake (after presumably reading this thread and others as you stated below again) ? If i have misinterpreted this, i apologize. Would you mind clearing this up and elaborating on your opinion of these now, and on your first post.
Thanks.
 
My point was that I thought that my badge was always good until I read your article and then I had doubts but wondered why a reproducer would put a totally phony letter on a well-made badge? You sure did stop me from entering in the discussion!
 
My point was that I thought that my badge was always good until I read your article and then I had doubts but wondered why a reproducer would put a totally phony letter on a well-made badge? You sure did stop me from entering in the discussion!
Hi
OK, But as you can see from post 1, that badge is not Cupal, sure its pretending to be, but cupal has both metals pressed together before the item is stamped out, (then after it is stamped out as it would be from a normal sheet, or strip of metal, not in two stages like this) and as you will see in post 1, that badge has been put together from two seperate sheets of stamped out badge-forms, i.e. a badge stamped, or in this cast possibly cast from some metal, then the sheeting, or backing of messing, Tombak.whatever also stamped out in the same badge form, then both glued together, and not even glued together properly, but that is all explained in the post anyway.... so Post 1, that badge is S marked ... and there is just no way that i can accept, or even consider that to be original after studying it like i did - meaning that the question is, Were there any Original S stamped badges? if so, then post 1 is a reproduction of them, and IF there were, then why are they not mentioned, and why S ? And how do the forgers know that they are real and copied them?? we know what the German abb. from a replacemnet badge is, we have it on the HJ golden badges, the HJ Golden sports badges etc etc etc..it was B, and not S.. so why would there be an S on the sports badges? and especially why only on badges made like this? i.e: glued together and terrible condition, and all marked with similar numbers?

I guess your question could be asnswered by using the HJ Golden badge that is marked BM1/122. Although there was never a makers number like this, they have still been classed as Original by the ONLY vereidigter sachverständiger für Orden in Germany, Nimmergut - who of course has been corrected and shown up in a few publications for saying that they are good.... the Forger will add crazy stuff onto badges JUST for this reason, so that collectors can of course never find anying Period on them, so think like you, and many others do - WHY would they do it? it seems inreasonable, therefore the item must be real... i know thats not what you are saying, but thats how a great many collectors think.

I did my part, and wasted enough of my good money buying these fakes just so that i could cut them up "live" and show everyone how they are made, i have none of them to sell, (they are all melted and bust) and have no dogs in the fight, so you, and anyone else can believe what you like, and discuss the S stamp forever - The more collectors discuss crazy markings, the more reasons they will find for them to be real....thats why this stuff wont flush..

I personally think that these "pretending to be Cupal" badges have the similar numbers either struck-out, or extra marked with a S in order to draw the collectors att. away from the fact that they are made so terribly, unlike any other HJ sports badge. When did you see a Noraml messing, Alpaka or zinc HJ sports badge marked with a S, or struck-out number? you never did :nono: and there is, in my opinion, a logical reason for it.
 
More S-cupal .. or trying to be

Another two examples of these up for sale this week, one even with a packet :) On both obverse images, its clear that the bronze backing plate is NOT already part of the sheet metal being stamped out, but that two separate forms were struck out, and then put together. (by an epileptic on bath salts) Trying to be cupal, but failing. Whats also interesting is that both look brand new, despite the horrible sharp barbs around the bronze backing plate that would have hooked and caught on any fabric the badge was attached too. I said so in this thread already, when i separated the backing plate from mine, the sharp edges almost shred my fingers they were that sharp..
Both are being sold as genuine from €70.- up.....

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Thanks for letting us see some pictures of the badges here it helps alot when trying to follow a discussion.

Anyway here is mine posted at WAF not sure that I agree with all the wild ideas about why there is an "s" stamped in the badge but I do realize that the quality of my badge is inferior compared to other badges that don't have the copper plated back.

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The "special" thing with my badge is that it was bought together with some other items that are all are original and this items has been in the veterans possession until 40 years ago when his sons friend got them and now 40 years later I bought them. I know it don't prove anything and of cause he could have bought these himself after the war as a replacement of of a lost badge...who know he is dead so its no way of getting an answer.

To bad the badge number cant be traced as I have the veterans name, that would have been an easy way to determine if this kind of badge even stand a small chance of being real.

My badge also dont have the die flaw visible on the revers of the badge that linked the M1/35 and the M1/M101 badge together.

All the best

Bjorn
 

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Bjorn, I think that there is more to be said about the "S" badge. I agree with you but always trying to keep an open mind.
 
Hi Bjorn,

Yes, there may be an authentic reason for the S but we have to look at the complete picture and consider why badges of such relatively poor quality would have been produced at the same time as badges of much higher quality and different construction. The serial number on your badge, if real, would correspond to an award year of 1941/2 which excludes the possibility of the 'late-war = bad quality' scenario. However, even if we accept the late-war scenario we have to ask ourselves why there are very few of this type of badge around despite the fact that at least a further 400,000 (of the silver level alone) were awarded by the end of 1944 (the highest attributable silver level badge number I have found is 649958 and it was awarded in October 1944). It doesn't make sense that a manufacturer would get away with such low quality at a relatively early stage of the war and that much later badges were of much better quality . However, this is all circumstantial and it is to be hoped that inquisitive minds will uncover more information.
 
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