HJ/JM proficiency badge for review

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As I have them for around 3 ya, never had them on the forums.
In my eyes looks ok but others opinions appreciated.

Hope you like them..... as I do
thx Peter

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one of the S stamped badges turned up on waf the other day as part of a vet bring back group alledgedly ??????
 
do you think so is a fake?Well I am not at home at he moment but next time I can check it out.(in couple months)
But I don't think so about my badge....but u never know :)

regards Peter
 
Also on my one doesn't look like with cooper film or so, and the edges are more fine than discrabed on your link,
If only I can comment the number on the left wing?
All original known badges have number on the right wing only?
Anyway is a good link good to know more about this badges:clap2:
Peter
 
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Also on my one doesn't look like with cooper film or so....
The ones in that link should not confuse people with legitimate Cupal.
The images below clarify again what (i personally) is meant with an extra thin plate glued, or pressed on, i.e: initially two badge-shapes were made, and then married. With cupal badges, the material strips used are already joined together/bonded, and the insignia/award is stamped out in one go, as with any other metal. With these S marked badges, it is plain to see that the backing plates are not part of the design, and have been attached after the front section was cast-stamped.

All original known badges have number on the right wing only?
No, early badges from A.D Schwerdt for example, are known to have the number impressed into the middle of the badge, and not on the arrow arm.

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one of the S stamped badges turned up on waf the other day as part of a vet bring back group alledgedly ??????
And the number on that one, is surprisingly csimilar to the other numbers on S stamped badges, as is the patina found on obverse and reverse of all of them, even though they are found with different makers codes.

ANY GPB collector will tell you that forgers of numbered awards always cock-up by using the same, or similar numbers - but when it comes to lower class pilgrims badges like these are, supposedly, then logic applied to Higher Golden shiny stuff wont, cant, MUSTN'T be used on them....

And the second one on that WAF thread, well the number is very close to more of these with either an S stamp, or with the serial number stamped out.
In fact ALL these numbers are so close together that that fact alone, should have raised flags without even considering the way in which they are constructed.

Anyway, any post that starts with "Veteran estate ..." usw.. is the first flag for me that something will not be right... The S stamp may not mean SUCKER, it could have been the German abb. for Scheiße.... it has been rumored that RZM-SS-WACHBATALLION-SONDERSTEMPEL marched around the licensed makers, with big "S" punches in their hands, and stamped an "S" onto anything that they regarded Scheiße.

Or the copper surfboard is a transfer, meant to be peeled off the back, and ironed onto your PT shorts....One badge for your jacket and one for your togs, all-in-one! Hence the letter S for SHORTS !

Lets also not forget, that these S marked, and Striped-out numbers badges, are also the only Leistungsabzeichen that have all, long, six-stellig numbers INDIVIDUALLY hand stamped,crooked and heavy-
handed. Every badge before it, and after it, has the numbers done all together, like they would have been, in neat little row. Not to mention that on a few, there are dead giveaways of single letters being over stamped, proof that each was, hand stamped. (Ignore that, a vet-bring-back-pill will cure the hangover that may come, should anyone doubt the story - heavens forbid)
 
Depends how its made. Is it proper cupal? or is it two shapes joined together, over and under-lapping in areas?

I saw the WAF link, and honestly didn't know that some people are under the impression that there are "reproductions" of the S marked badges :001_smile:
Which ones are repro`s ? The cast-in-an-acid-bath with integrated razor blade plate? or the brutally hand stamped by Boris the Beast badges, that even though have different makers codes were made using the same ill-fitting back plate (as well as cast-in-an-acid bath obverse) and who`s numbers are all remarkably similar.
 
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I saw the WAF link, and honestly didn't know that some people are under the impression that there are "reproductions" of the S marked badges :001_smile:

Yes, I found that interesting too. Mijke's post tells me that he was convinced by your destructive testing and micro-examination of the 'S' badges here on the forum but that he balances that against getting some of these badges from veterans.
 
Garry, i dont see any of the "haters" lifting their fingers and doing anything other than giving each other a virtual thumbs-up, supported by "they came from a vet - shock - horror - cant be, MWF is a twat - end of!"
Stone age mentality right there, and impossible to discuss anything with collectors who black everything out and cling to their Vet Buy stories as if they were solid proof, as if something someone supposedly told another person at the time of a sale, trumps logic and a thorough examination as has been carried out here, on many threads... Ping-Pong is called Ping-Pong, because the ball comes back to you, to be hit back, and so on. It`s not called PONG, and it`s not called PING. The game wont work if the ball does not come back to you... and that is what happens here, the haters cant return the ball, except to constantly whine that their source is legit and anything else said must be ignored.

If you dont return the ball, you loose the game - simple as! When last did a "hater" share anything informative, share any research they have done to support their opinions? they never did, and wont, because they are into hating and not into research of any kind.
 
Yep. I definitely detected some benign smiles from Mijke and Ron R on that thread. They sound like fathers discussing the first tentative steps of their idealistic, energetic children into the big bad world of collecting. Quite amusing in a way. Yes, I agree with you: despite the evidence you offered, their minds are made up. All they are willing to concede is that fakes of the 'S' badge exist (even though they have no idea why a badge would be constructed like that and what the S was for). They are not, however, interested in anything else because they got their badges from veterans. This non-verifiable subjective experience is worth more to them.

This is about belief and you can kinda equate it to a discussion on religion. Whatever evidence is offered by the sceptic is ultimately irrelevant to the believer who will just keep saying 'I believe' thereby closing out the possibility of further discussion. They may moan about 'upstarts' being unwilling to accept 'fatherly' advice but the fact remains that vet bring-backs/motel buys/vet pick-ups have been discredited too often to be taken at face value. Just look at the 'DJ' and 'BDM' knife saga. They were apparently obtained from vets too but have been comprehensively debunked as we all know. I'm sure that you and others reading this thread can think of many, many more examples of that.

As we know, the big problem in collecting (in regard to research) is that a lot of people just don't care. All they want is to see a majority in favour of their item and that will do. When people start looking at collectibles as we do here on our forum it upsets the apple cart and some people don't understand
 
but...but...the vet told me?

Well i am also smiling Garry. I would feel like a ripe prune if all i had done was to bitch and moan that my opinion is correct because i got mine from a returning vet - and my friends also collaborate that they too, got theirs from returning vets, and that together we have so many years of collecting experience (add more bitching) that we are correct, and anything whispered to the contrary is heresy! Meanwhile the opposition, are throwing analysis after analysis at me, posing question after question.. they are spending their own cash purchasing these fakes to willfully destroy them, LOOSING CASH to EDUCATE, (un-flipping-heard of in this hobby from the opinionists) and help save others from falling for the trap....... yes i would feel like a right, ripe Prune - if that was me.. but it`s not, the roles are reversed in this case, so i have cause to smile.

Now is the vet story here really the issue? (these particular items) or is the picture a much larger one? Personalities play a large role in this hobby, and can, and do, overshadow research and logic on many occasions. Is the problem possibly my personality? I know what has happened to me, regards my relationship between certain big wigs, certain forum-experts with 50 years experience since last year, and pretty soon it will get much worse. So maybe even a valid point to consider here. What could my agenda be? To throw my own money out of the window? even though everyone knows that i actually collect these exact badges, for myself..... so what could my game plan be? Am i possibly just insane and want a good item to not be real? Are all the images here made up, is the research and analysis complete BS? well if it was, if the points raised were not valid, then surely one of these Vet-Huggers will be so kind as to point out the mistakes in everything written about them, by me.. point out why my research so far is rubbish, and why their freaking vet-story should triumph over the few, but very detailed threads here?

Ping Pong, or once again a one man game of Pong? Well it will be a game a pong for sure, but at some point i will swap the ping-pong balls for cricket balls.:thumb:
 
That's not the impression I got Metallwarenfabrik. You carried out research into a questionable badge and collectors now have something tangible to read and think about. I congratulate you and this forum in general for living up to the name of hj RESEARCH. There is too little of that kind of thinking around in this hobby. I guess we have to take the vet buy vet bringback scenario at face value because we weren't there when the deal took place but I don't like it when I see these guys ignoring new information and looking down their noses at people who are putting the effort in. As you say, they can't discuss things at this level because often they just don't have the knowledge to be able to do so
 
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Well, I guess the "Vet bring back" stories will be finished in the next 20 years, right? oder?

Thanks to this Forum, thanks to people like Jo, Garry, Saris, Henrik, between others, of course, you realise that to learn about a piece, a process, you dont have to leave even your house, you dont have to visit many shows. Just have to read, see and back to reading. But, of course, it is not so exciting (and sometimes really boring) that going to shows and comparing. Mayba people believe to be the Militaria Indiana Jones, but the thruth is that much of the information you need, can be obtained from home. Many answers can be just answered, if man is able to read it.

Of course, "field experience" is also really important, but what investigation start on the field before than on the books, archives and documents? Nobody would investigate abut Spanish Galleons without trying to get inthe the Archives of "Archivo de Indias" in Sevilla, right? So, is it really so different for the German Militaria?

Regars

Antonio
 
Just looking at the new update at becks, and the old S marked is back up this week, along with a few other fakes that have not sold last year (Fake SSFM honor badge marked RZM M1/133 etc...)
Great quality, i guess these ones are what a few might think are fake? yet the reverse plate is exactly the same as the ones they say are good. (Good old Boris the beast)

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Well, the participant on the WAF thread quite cleverly out-manoeuvred this in advance by acknowledging your work on these badges (although he stopped short of a full acknowledgement). If this dog of a badge from Beck's was shown in the WAF thread they would just say "yeah, we accept that there are fakes of the S badge about but we got ours from vets and they don't look like that one". Quote 50 years of experience whilst pushing out a disinterested yawn and there ya go; vet-acquired badge wins, discussion over! :whoo:

Okay, being a bit facetious there but what I miss with these 'vet bring back/motel buy' discussions is any willingness to discuss the actual item. They go all defensive and start calling this place 'unfriendly'. Does my head in sometimes :)
 
Garry, i was thinking about these again last night, and there is something else. On the first few posts, its clear that the S marked M1/35 and M1/101 badges were made using the same dies, and marked by the same person (Boris the Animal)
But, why are they not silver-washed? If we take both M1/35 and M1/101, and see what they made before these numbered badges, (Silver versions) and see what they made after these numbers, (Silver versions) then we see the normal style, and we see that they are silver-washed, even the common B-stücke... so why are these badges not silver-washed? why are only these funny S marked badges not silver-washed?

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I'm with you Jo. The problem is that complacency borne out of the 'I got it from a vet' scenario. We can only hope that a sufficient number of people read the two long threads here on the forum and the one on WAF (and any others like it, if they exist) before making their minds up. I see ample grounds for doubt in these badges: they are illogical, badly-made etc etc but these guys are sure they got theirs from vets - which I accept (how can I say that they didn't?). I understand both sides of the equation but those boys just ain't talking so the discussion inevitably runs into a cul-de-sac like a thousand other discussions where it is 'vet buy' against research.
 
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