JM Leistungsabzeichen achievement badge

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Jungmädel Leistungsabzeichen

Hello,
I got this nice piece recently. I think that it's original

hallo,
dieses schöne Stück habe ich letztens bekommen. Ich denke es ist original.
gruß 0900

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Hi and welcome to the forum.

We have been discussing the introduction date of the Jungmädel achievement badge here and our information suggests very strongly that it was introduced between three and four years after the RZM took control. With that in mind, the badge you show should not be marked just 'GES GESCH' but rather with RZM M1/... Can you upload larger pictures please?
 
Hallo,
ich mache die nächsten Tage bessere Fotos.
Die RZM und M1 Markung ist auch drauf.
Es handelt sich um ein M1/35
gruß
 
Excellent. I couldn't see the RZM mark on the photo so good to hear that it is there. Looking forward to seeing the pictures.
 
Hi nigel,

Can you go into detail on what you mean by 'pre-1942' please?
 
never seen one with a ges gesch on the pin plate before, like garry said should not really be there
 
the jm badge is original,the low number means it was a early issue,i cant remember where i saw it but up untill 1942 so many thousand had been issued,i remember that your number would had been below this,mine has a high number so its post 1942,hope this helps.
 
Hello all

Others M1/35 with Ges. Gesch to compare (with high numbers) :

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mine is a m1/35 issue number 139527 and is not marked ges gesch on the pin plate,and my number is post 1942 as i remember when doing some research,i can only assume that as your number is higher then mine,and do to the war on both fronts they had the pin plates made by a manufacture who was not under rzm control,as i understand ges gesch was still in use, so that do to the war W&L had to purchase or have made some pin plates outside rzm control or they were left over stock and used as they were in short supply of material.
 
the jm badge is original....mine has a high number so its post 1942

No one is saying that the badge is a fake. In post 1 the M1/35 is not visible but he lets us know in post 3 that it is there with the badge in hand.

Yes. your badge was definitely awarded post-1942. Based on period documentation found for other JM badges it was very probably issued in 1943/early 1944. Badge serial number 156570 for example was issued in August 1944.
 
do (due) to the war on both fronts they had the pin plates made by a manufacture who was not under rzm control,as i understand ges gesch was still in use,
Seeing as this is still relatively fresh in my head, let me help out.
Your assumption that Nadelfabriken were not licensed by the RZM cannot be proven. (although i agree) Of the near 200 M2/ or Metallabzeichenhilfsfabriken, we only know the names of about 30-35.
When it comes to Nadelhersteller we know the names of about 40. Just because none of these 40 names are found amongst the limited numbers of the M2 that we know, is nowhere near enough proof that they, one or two, or those used later on, were not licensed by the RZM. I would guess though, that none were, seeing as it was a mundane item that makers of such would have been supplying to the industry before WW1 right through to this day. I see no need for an RZM license, the same would apply to a Maker and supplier of Enamel powder/granulat, i also see no reason why they would need a special RZM permit, in this case theoretically also an M2 license, to sell powder.. That is just my opinion and is not law, the same as what you are saying can also only be your opinion, and cant be used as the basis for debate on this issue, let alone used to reached any opinion on authenticity.

Regarding purchasing, they were not free, and every sub-contractor or badge maker would have had to purchase them. There are adverts known by makers of badges like Steinhauer and Deumer who advertise Nadelhaken, but this is also no proof that they made them. I would take a guess that amongst the near 190 Licensed M1/ makers, none of them made the attachment.

The abbreviation GES.GESCH is still in use today, 2012 :thumb:
I dont see any problems with the pin plate at all, although i must just add that this form of pin plate was used before the Third Reich, and well after as well. The last plate like this that i pulled off a badge was made around 1980.

I cant comment on your badge, but the pin plate cant even be considered as a point of argument in relationship to this items authenticity, you must use other aspects. What they would be i cant say, because i have never had one, and would not know what to look for.

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The last plate like this that i pulled off a badge was made around 1980.
In fact, the early fake enamel badges made around the start of the 70s also have these pin plates on them
 
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very interesting point made by metallwarenfabrik,mine does not have the pin plate marked ges gesch,the pin plates marked ges gesch, look to be original to the jm badge,and as far as i can make out it looks a period attachment.
 
He isn't saying that your badge (or rather the pin) is a fake either Nigel. All I was driving at with my question further up the thread was a little clarification of your statement that you knew your badge to have been awarded post-1942. It was (as we have already established) but I saw a hint in your post that you had access perhaps to period information to that effect. The badge itself looks perfectly okay on your photos.
 
very interesting point made by metallwarenfabrik,mine does not have the pin plate marked ges gesch,the pin plates marked ges gesch, look to be original to the jm badge,and as far as i can make out it looks a period attachment.
Collectors need to forget this wifes-tale of GES.GESCH on the badge or the plate. The only reason that pin plates are marked GES.GESCH is because they are a separate item, that was, at some time patented, therefore the design of that particular attachment being Gesetzlich geschützt.

It seems to me that collectors use whatever they feel happy with at the time, to accept, or dismiss items on the basis of banalities like this.

Example: Its OK, and accepted that Paulmann und Crone, Otto Riedel, Franz Otto etc marked their NSDAP an HJ official badges with GES.GESCH on the planchet, and it`s OK that Golden Party Badge collectors accept that the abbreviation GES.GESCH is found on the planchet, yet will use silly things like this attachment as a basis to authenticate? or even to discuss? crazy. The wrong road was chosen long ago, and sadly all the TURN AROUND and DEAD END signs have been missed or continue to be ignored.

The bulk of what you use to address a fake or Original can only include these banalities as a plus point, or to support other factors ▬ after all other aspects have been discussed. What they are in this case i dont know, but surely nothing to do with this particular pin plate.
 
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