HJ Skiführer ski instructor badge - real or fake?

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real or fake ??

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I would buy it for 50 dollars . (but only as a representitive piece .) As it is a fake .
 
This is very rare badge and made by only one maker (Wittmann). Originals have a hollow back and I must ask myself if Wittmann would need to make variations of a badge which was made in very small numbers (the one you show has solid back). I agree with the others that this is a fake. Who is the dealer?
 
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This is very rare badge and made by only one maker (Wittmann). Originals have a hollow back and I must ask myself if Wittmann would need to make variations of a badge which was made in very small numbers (the one you show has solid back). I agree with the others that this is a fake. Who is the dealer?
it is brentwood auction house it was brought back by a now deceased vet and came from his estate it is stamped wittman in correct area,just the back is the worry,but ive seen other supposed badges in various guises,who knows ??
 
auction houses will supply a letter of authenticity for any crap doesnt make it original
 
This is withought doubt a fake. It has caught a number of collectors. I have attached scans of the badge to show it more clearly. Also a brief history of the award and its manufacture, I hope this is helpful and interesting.

Hitler Youth Expert Skier Badge.
Instituted on 1934?
Rarity – Extremely Rare
Known Makers –Wittman, München, F Hoffstätter, Bonn.

This badge comprises of a circle that measures 60 mm and has a width of 6 mm. On to this, in raised capital letters is, 'SKI HJ. FÜHRER'. A pair of crossed skis is superimposed across the badge. Over their centre is an edelweiss incorporating the enamelled HJ membership diamond. The skis measure 77 mm long and they are soldered to the circle at their four meeting points. There are subtle differences in the badges constructed by Wittmann and Hoffstätter, which can be detected by observing the badges from the obverse. The upper ends of the Skies on the Hoffstätter badges have a more pronounced “hook”, and the tip of the large petal of the Edelweiss at the “five o clock” position lies on top of the centre line of the ski, while those on the Wittmann examples touches but does not overlap the centre line

The reverse of the circle is plain with the maker's name impressed in small, capital letters that are found in two lines, 'WITTMAN, MÜNCHEN', or ‘F HOFFSTÄTTER, BONN’ and similarly impressed 'Ges. Gesch'. The reverse of the edelweiss shows the negative of the obverse. There are two needle pins, and hinge and hook attachments. The whole of the badge is very finely constructed and finished in silver that is artificially patinated with an old smoke effect. It is highly possible that these two companies were not the true makers of the award, but the distributors of it.

The specific criteria for award of the badge are unknown but it is probable that some form of rigid alpine skiing test was undertaken to earn the award. This could also have encompassed first aid and other leadership qualities. The date of institution is unknown but the badge is shown in an HJ manual for 1934, which describes it as being for the HJ, BDM and JM. It is most probable that this was given as a mark of qualification upon passing their tests prior to becoming recognised instructors in those organisations. It must therefore be considered in this light rather than an actual award. When awarded the HJ Ski Leader’s Badge was presented in a fitted case with press-stud button. The colour of the case and liner are not known. The citation that accompanied the award is also not unknown, as is the length of time this very rare badge was in being.

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......The specific criteria for award of the badge are unknown but it is probable that some form of rigid alpine skiing test was undertaken to earn the award. This could also have encompassed first aid and other leadership qualities. The date of institution is unknown but the badge is shown in an HJ manual for 1934, which describes it as being for the HJ, BDM and JM. It is most probable that this was given as a mark of qualification upon passing their tests prior to becoming recognised instructors in those organisations. It must therefore be considered in this light rather than an actual award. When awarded the HJ Ski Leader’s Badge was presented in a fitted case with press-stud button. The colour of the case and liner are not known. The citation that accompanied the award is also not unknown, as is the length of time this very rare badge was in being.

Toby posted a cased example a while back here if you'd like a peek at the case and lining.

I agree with you. For me this badge is a qualification badge and not an award. As far as finding the qualification requirements is concerned I think that a good candidate may well be documents/publications from the DAV. I had a sneaking suspicion that these badges were not actually worn by the HJ but rather by DAV ski leaders involved in Hitler Youth alpine training but your 1934 manual would seem to contradict that. Do you have any scans you could show from it?
 
Thank you Garry, pleased to hopefully be of use. Moving on with this award, it seems there are other copies being made. I was not able to see the link to Tobbys post, but think it might be a badge like this. This badge is extreemly good, but the die is not as the original. Many very slight differences. Also the patination is quite different and of a darker grey. As the award, produced or sold, by the two firms is identical. This has to be conjoined by the fact that so few were produced, with these things in mind, then the need for another die is extreemly unlikly.

I have added the scan of an original, sorry that it is not as clear as I would like, my print ones are too large to add, but I am sure it will illistrate the points I have raised.

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Ah yes, here's the pic I mentioned:

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Thank you. It is very difficult from the picture to be certain. However the patination seems good. It would be helpful to have a close up of the badge, obverse and reverse.
 
Hopefully Toby will see the thread as he may well have more images saved.
 
The date of institution is unknown but the badge is shown in an HJ manual for 1934, which describes it as being for the HJ, BDM and JM.

He doesn't show this "manual" on his blog and I've never yet managed to find this badge being mentioned in a period book. I'd love to of course though. Does anyone have an idea what manual he might be talking about? Being Ailsby it's possible that he just made it up but it would be great to see a period reference supporting what he says. I've been looking at a lot of orders recently including many regarding skiing and this HJ-Skiführer qualification is never mentioned. The people running the courses are always either HJ-Schiwarte or from the DAV.
 
haha yes, you certainly did. I commented on it too. Oops :)
Get yourself checked for covid-Wuhan-deadly ASAP!
Our TV is telling us exactly this.. "If you find you can`t remember things well, you have covid-19, you will sneeze and you will die!"
Quick Garry..............
 
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