Hochlandlager 1936

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Hello
I need opinions on this badge! For me it's a fake ..
mfg Brian

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Just read through the thread Brian. Your 'Super-Mod' is being very complacent and lazy there. If all collectors thought the way he does we might as well just forget all about the history and just make sure we are 'happy'. I see some valid questions posed in the thread which he is simply ignoring because he can't be bothered to address them.

Well, let's see what our guys think of these badges. I'll have a look at my stuff and will post here if I find anything.
 
A book or pamphlet "Hochlandlager Wachvorschrift" was produced for guard personnel and those on such duties during the 1934 Hochlandlager. This mentions a badge that was produced by Gebiet 19 Hochland and given to visitors to the camp by gate personnel so that their arrival and time of leaving the area could be registered. Now, this does seem a perfectly good use for a Hochlandlager badge with a strange serial number roughly stamped onto it. A system that worked in 1934 is unlikely to have changed much two years later so perhaps the Hochlandlager 1936 badges with the serial numbers were held in the guard huts and issued to visitors for the duration of their stay in the camp. It makes perfect sense to me but without more evidence it remains a theory. Subsequent edit: the numbers of visitors in 1936 had to be restricted due to the increasing popularity of the Hochlandlager and this might answer the question of why there are serial-numbered badges around in the 5000 range.
Garry? so you have a 1934 Hochlandlager badge with a number on it :pound:because this is what you are implying.

Garry? You are implying that these were only made for single-useage, and had to be handed back when the visitor left?
Meaning that each visitor would need to always wear a coat with a buttonhole.
Meaning that some visitors took the badges home with them (unless all of the examples we have today were found in a Guards hut :lol:
Meaning that the maker would have been told in advance to make only 5000, meaning that they knew in advance that there would be too many visitors.
The underlined blue part, is because, well, i would like to see you take a badge like this, with no number, and then try to hand stamp numbers onto the obverse, without completely buckling the badge - meaning that the numbers were stamped on at the same time as it was being made.
I know that AlexK at WAF made a stupid suggestion to this effect, but thats just a person talking without thinking, and with no hands-on knowledge of making badges. Nothing more, in fact once more, making a stupid comment without acknowledging the actual item! His pathetic: "Oh lad, would you like your number stamped on? ok, bam bam bam bam, there you go", can be shot down, burnt, then shot again, simply because the only badges with numbers on, are those on a button hole attachment, that WAS NOT USED BY GERMAN MANUFACTURERS ! Period, end of, and anyone who wished to prove me wrong, MUST do some research, acknowledge my research into this area, and let me know where i went wrong, a simple, pre-school retort with an idiotic opinion wont do, and in future will not get a reply from me. Thats my stance on these, if you cant bring any of your own, semi-decent research to this discussion, then keep the cake-hole buttoned up!

Does not make sense at all.

Altsilber, btw, is not a material, but rather only an "effect" that was added after the badge was made. This is explained in my book, and in period articles.

Participants badge number? You will need to prove that participants even had, an individual number. If they did, then they also had an ID to go with the badge, it is that simple. (and then they did as well from 1934 to the last Hochlandlager in the war years - BDM included)
Judges badge? Laughable and out of the question, a grabbing at straws theory.

Yes Theories, and perhaps, and supposed, they have long taken precedence over actual factual research, so why not. I will stick to my moon theory, and say that each number referred to a specific docking station on Planet Gulu, thats right next to the moon btw.

I will continue with these later, but for now, am not going to waste my time considering opinions and theories.
 
Mate, you're going too far now. You're taking the p##s. I offered a possible explanation for a roughly stamped number being on the smaller version of the Hochland badge based on information contained in a period source. I am NOT saying that these badges are therefore authentic. You might not like your enemies latching onto what I said as being "proof" for their position but you need to separate that battle from the search for information on these badges.

I linked to the explanatory post in post #7. You might want to read it all.

EDit: if you can prove that the buttonhole attachment is not TR then you will have nailed it and will sweep away all doubt about them. That is what they want to hear if I have interpreted the other thread correctly.
 
Enemies? me? perish the thought :swiss
Nope, Theories and supposed this and that, and whatever else have you, is useless before some proper hands on research is done. And to be fair, your theory, is full of holes.
A system that worked in 1934 is unlikely to have changed much two years later
What system? what system worked 2 years prior? there was a numbering system on badges in 1934? because this is exactly what you have implied and roped in to your theory in support of it.
I know you dont actually believe that, and we both know there was no numbering system in 1934, so i cant work out really why you even wrote it, or came up with that Theory in the first place.

Shouldn't we try and find out IF these items even belong in the Third Reich before we start with the Theories? :sad:
And you know why i replied like that, because it is true, all this crap about opinion and theory is edzackery why we have no-brainers like "It has been said that it was a judges badge, a participants badge, a moon badge..... "
All it takes to add one more, the Guard in the hut handing badges to visitors theory, is what you just wrote. The limp biscuits of our hobby, (thats a good percentage) will cling to anything they can, so dont be surprised when you see this Camp Guard theory posted as fact in time to come.
And, i always go too far - it usually brings the desired reaction - information - response:pound:
 
Theories and supposed this and that, and whatever else have you, is useless before some proper hands on research is done. And to be fair, your theory, is full of holes
I posted information from a period book written specifically for the Hochlandlager 1934. It isn't "useless" information and I think that it does indeed constitute "proper research". It is not in itself proof of anything and I haven't claimed that it is. It is a possible explanation for the numbers.


Metallwarenfabrik said:
A system that worked in 1934 is unlikely to have changed much two years later
I fail to see what's suspicious about that. Why change how to guard the Hochlandlager and control visitors if the system works. It's only necessary to change it if it doesn't work. That's a logical deduction - not a claim.

Metallwarenfabrik said:
What system? what system worked 2 years prior? there was a numbering system on badges in 1934? because this is exactly what you have implied and roped in to your theory in support of it.
I didn't say that there was a numbering system and I didn't imply it. I said that it would make sense. We have a badge with a serial number and no one, including you, has shown that badge to be a fantasy. Until it is shown to be a fantasy it exists and needs to be explained. I offered an explanation - I did not offer a statement of fact.

You do NOT know whether there was a numbering system. You don't know whether there wasn't one either so to make a blanket statement like "we both know" etc is flimsy and unhelpful because you are closing avenues of investigation for yourself without knowing whether you are justified in doing so. I was a soldier for 26 years and pushed guard duty quite often. There was a numbering system to control visitors in every guardroom I worked in. Sometimes they got a big serial-numbered card to put in their cars, sometimes they got numbered metal tallies etc. It was a system that worked perfectly and it wasn't rocket science.

Metallwarenfabrik said:
Shouldn't we try and find out IF these items even belong in the Third Reich before we start with the Theories?
Well, you haven't done that yet so perhaps now would be a good time. As I said, if you can follow through with proof for your statement that the buttonhole attachment is not TR then bang, end of story, end of theories.

Metallwarenfabrik said:
And you know why i replied like that, because it is true, all this crap about opinion and theory is edzackery why we have no-brainers like "It has been said that it was a judges badge, a participants badge, a moon badge..... "
All it takes to add one more, the Guard in the hut handing badges to visitors theory, is what you just wrote. The limp biscuits of our hobby, (thats a good percentage) will cling to anything they can, so dont be surprised when you see this Camp Guard theory posted as fact in time to come.

I'm not disposed to the storyteller approach to this hobby and I am unlikely to write "crap" just so that I can keep my post-count up. I like facts. I like to see proof. I haven't presented any proof that these numbered badges were handed out to visitors at the Hochlandlager. You are implying that. I have offered a possible scenario, based on information in a period source specific to the 1934 Hochlandlager, that might explain why these smaller, stamped badges exist for 1936. The source states that badges were produced specifically for use in guard huts and for visitors. Fact - but that's it. There is no description of the badge so if anyone latches onto my theory and holds tight for ever more then they are stupid. No one is going to latch onto it though and if they do, I will repeat what I said: it's a theory.

Metallwarenfabrik said:
And, i always go too far - it usually brings the desired reaction - information - response :pound:


Yeah, nice caveat but I don't need to be provoked into writing on this forum Jo. If you push that stuff too far, no one will respond to you.
 
Well, you haven't done that yet so perhaps now would be a good time. As I said, if you can follow through with proof for your statement that the buttonhole attachment is not TR then bang, end of story, end of theories.
Why is this my job all of a sudden? I have written about attachments, and researched exactly this, so what you have to do, is read it, and then tell me what parts of my research, you dont agree with. Simple. Not just put the burden on me to solve this question, which by the way, is being asked all over, by people have have done no research into this area.
I haven't done that yet? What.... i am the only one around is who is researching and writing about this stuff, all everyone else is doing is assuming, and conjuring up theories. Fair? you think so? Fair to ignore detailed research, and just blunder on with "It is up to me to prove..." what they dont understand, have not researched, or even read about? Thats fair? Thats tits about face that is. I wont even consider debating with someone who takes this approach, and rightfully so imho!

All i need to do, is sit back, and wait until someone asks me a question that relates to my research, the prerequisite being that they have read it. After that, we can proceed. I dont mind going the extra mile, but there is no way, in 1000 cold days in Hell, that i am going to bow to requests from people who demand i prove something, while they sit back, and do nothing, and cant even be bothered to mention specific research into exactly what they are talking about.

And besides, for the doubting Thomas`s, this is very easy, all you would need is to find another German small badge, made between 1900-1945 that has this swivel head button attachment. Alternatively, you could try the Patent archives, and you might find a patent for it, from, say..1983.. in Poland? who knows... and what would it matter? collectors would just come up with something like: Well maybe a German invented them 40 years earlier, and didn't patent them... Try and prove that wrong.:sad:
 
Jo, you told collectors on another thread that the buttonhole attachment was not TR so yes, it is YOUR job because YOU made the statement. You are blustering at me because I proposed a theory but you're apparently more forgiving when it's you offering one. However, what you said isn't a theory. You made an unequivocal statement that the attachment is not TR. You now need to prove it. I don't have your book, does anyone yet?

I don't like being insulted mate. And I like it even less when I suspect that someone has an ulterior motive for doing it.
 
No, i dont need to prove anything. Yes i made that statement, and no, i am not talking about my book, i am talking about an article on attachments in a 2012 magazine. And no, nobody has my book - yet, as far as i know, 20th September is the release date, or shipping date, or binning date :)

If you dont agree with that statement, then it is up to you, to prove that i am telling porkies. The same as it is, up to us, to prove that older authors were telling porkies when they wrote, or said, what they did - if we dont agree with them.
If i was telling porkies, then that would surely, be a very easy thing to prove. We dont have the patent for the Japanese "coffin pin attachment" but we all agree that it is only found on badges made well after 1945. I cant PROVE that it was not a TR era attachment, but because we know that it is only found on fakes, we can logically assume that it was not, and because we know, that the thousands of good original badges in our collections, do not ever show one of those attachments, we add 2 a 2, and get 4 :) and correctly so. That is the same as these screw-backs, or swivel buttonhole attachments. We find them on... fakes, and we do not find them on period badges at all, not maybe once, not at all.

How am i supposed to prove to you, that this swivel buttonhole attachment was never used in Germany during 1900-1945? The only logical thing, at the moment that i can think of, is to tell you that: It is found on fakes, it is never found on original TR badges...
I hope that suffices. Ulterior motives? i dont have any.
 
Okay, that is much clearer. Firstly though. I have not, within or without this thread, ever thrown down a challenge to you to prove that the attachment isn't TR. I just reminded you that you had confidently and unequivocally stated that over on WAF. I haven't challenged you because I hadn't even considered that the attachment on these badges might be bogus until you mentioned it. People have different areas of specific interest and knowledge in this hobby and small badges are yours so if you say that this is not a TR attachment then clearly it is expected that the proof will be forthcoming. I agree with your logic about fakes and their common attachments but what you say in post #14 above is certainly not the revelation I was expecting. You now want me to prove that your statement about the attachment is wrong? Despite the fact that you can't offer proof for your position? That is a strange turn of events... I know that you like my signature but have you really understood it?
 
Yes, thats exactly what you have to do :thumbup: Just the same as if you read it, and the author (or dealer-author) was not at home to answer questions. (or passed away or unknown) And whatever they wrote had just become accepted. You have to counter with solid reasons why you are challenging my claim.
My claim stands :001_tongue: Your signature stands, and applies to you as well, at least until you have any evidence to the contrary.. because the "evidence" that i have, is in all, the original small badges known to the collector today. And that is a lot more than any detractor has yet :)
 
You're not reading this stuff correctly so there's little point in this. I will say this though: I have not challenged you on the attachment. I simply reminded you of what you had said. I am coming at this from the angle that your proof (that the attachment is not TR) could potentially have closed down all discussion of any Hochland badge with that fastener. That would have been a very useful short-cut that would have allowed us to concentrate on the other badges.
 
Hello Garry and Jo,

what are your conclusions ?. How to read your revelations?.
Do we have to understand that this badge really existed but 90% of badges on the market are almost all fakes ??.
Please, I would like to have a simple answer because I'm a bit lost with all his explanations.

Best regards

Eric
 
Unfortunately not Garry. The next step would be, (and rightfully too) to challenge the attachments themselves, and say, that because they are but one, separate piece of the badge, it would be unfair to judge the whole item, as strange as it may be, on one small, and in reality, replaceable attachment. I would agree with this 100%, although, to date all these numbered badge show the same attachment, so at least until now, it seems appropriate to "assume" that the attachment left the factory on the back of these, and are not a post war addition/replacement.
So even if i could locate the man who invented these, and beat a confession out of him, as to them being made in 1983 and not 1933, that will still leave the door, wide open for further speculation. The only way around this, is to judge the item itself, from top to toe, and add more "questions" to the already important question of:
Why are these attachments not see on any small badge at all, in this form, during the period it is claiming to be from - yet are known on many fakes and fantasy badges, that collectors accept as fake and fantasy.
Or.... maybe a closer examination might just reveal, that the item, no matter what anyone thinks or assumes, can indeed only be genuine.
If that point is reached, then i would be more than happy to add theories of my own. (not the moon one, that was a little joke, i would think of something better) As well as affording the attachment it`s correct place around the Third Reich attachment table.
 
Hello Garry and Jo,

what are your conclusions ?. How to read your revelations?.
Do we have to understand that this badge really existed but 90% of badges on the market are almost all fakes ??.
Please, I would like to have a simple answer because I'm a bit lost with all his explanations.

Best regards

Eric

Hi Eric,

The last few posts on this thread concerned the attachment on the small version of the Hochland badge (the one with a serial number). If it can be established that the pin attachment is not TR then we have a good basis from which to work. The full-size version of the Hochland badge comes either with or without enamel as you know and these still need to be fully explored. I wrote a little on that in the above link.
 
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