Und Ihr Habt Doch Gesiegt

Garry

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I know almost nothing about these badges. Has anyone looked into them? Who received them? Were they an official badge? I have some regulations on honour badges but this badge is never mentioned alongside them and it would be good to find out more about them in general. Why 1923? The HJ always viewed the organisation as having been created in 1926 so 1923 seems odd..

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I know almost nothing about these badges. Has anyone looked into them? Who received them? Were they an official badge? I have some regulations on honour badges but this badge is never mentioned alongside them and it would be good to find out more about them in general. Why 1923? The HJ always viewed the organisation as having been created in 1926 so 1923 seems odd..

good question gary, will be interesting to hear from our fellow members here on this tinnie/badge. pete.:thumbup1:
 
strange to see the year '23 on a hj badge. I tought it was only 1926 when AH recognized the HJ as the official youth organisation?!

good question you ask here garry.

I really don't know but mayby München already used the name earlier ? Or it could be one of the post hj groups that already had that name in use?

Hope somebody knows the answer to this one.
 
Indeed, very interesting badges and of striking design, IMHO. Forgive me if I'm telling you what you already know but 1923 relates to the Putsch, as does the slogan "Und ihr habt doch gesiegt". HJ members did participate on the march. In fact, a few years back a Blood Order and Jungsturm badge were sold on the WAF E-Stand, both items belonging to the same recipient. If I remember rightly, the recipient was even mentioned in the Patzwall list as being "Jungsturm".

A silver (800 or better) presentation example of this badge is illustrated in the most recent Johnson "War Booty" book. I will see if I can post a scan of it.

Best,
Toby.
 
Regards from Berlin,

I can not be so long in itnernet. I beleive Toby is right. 1923 is the date of the Putsch in Munich. The monument that is shown in the oin is located at Odeonsplatz, the place where the Putsch was stopped by the police/army.

14 "nazis" died. But there is a rumour which says that 2 of them were just normal people who were in the wrong place, wrong time.

Also 3 policemen died, but some "stories" say that they were 4.

I think it is just another of the "conmemoration" years for the HJ. The perfect excuse to talk to kids about fights, martyrs, blood, Heimat, Deutschland, etc. Perfect history.

Like the Tinnie dedicated to Schlagater, Düsseldorf 1923. There is another Tinnie conmemorating the 10 years of his dead for his "passive fight" against the French army who occuipaed the Ruhr area in compensation because Germany wasnt paying the money agreed in Versailles.

Okidoki guys... time to keep helping my "sister in law" with her moving.

Take care.

REgards

Antonio
 
If you're really unlucky, I'll find a photo of me standing on the steps of the Feldherrnhalle (the monument depcited on the badge)!
 
I thought that the Feldhernnhalle was destroyed during the war from bombing .
 
this badge also comes in a solid back and a hollow back version , i believe it was issued in munchen to members of the hj in 1933 to commemorate the 10th year anniversary of the pusch,
 
Thanks guys. Yes, this can only be related to the commemoration of the Putsch. The RJF would never have permitted a date earlier than 1926 to be used in relation to the HJ so this can't be a pure HJ badge.

The regulations don't mention this badge at all as I say so I'm assuming that it can only be a day badge which was given to/bought by those who attended a particular event as Stu says.

The German dealers call this a 'tradition badge' but that does seem to be rather a grand title for a badge which doesn't appear in a large regulation directly related to such items. I wonder if that is the name given to the badge in a Wittmann (the maker) catalogue?
 
in adding to this thread found this pre-war list of member numbers today and it starts in 23??????

Pre-war Membership HJ DJV BDM DJM Combined

1923 1,200
1924 2,400
1925 5,000
1926 6,000
1927 8,000
1928 10,000
1929 13,000
1930 26,000
1931 63,700
1932 99,586
1933 2,292,041
1934 3,577,565
1935 3,942,303
1936 5,437,602
1937 5,879,955
1938 7,031,226
1939 7,287,470
 
Hi Stu,

Yes, when modern reference books talk about the numbers of HJ members prior to 1926 they are talking about the various nationalist youth organisations which existed prior to the official formation of the HJ in 1926.

The very first youth section of the NSDAP was the 'Jugendbund der NSDAP' in 1922 but this was short-lived and was forbidden along with the rest of the NSDAP in 1923. There was also the 'Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterjugend' in Vienna.

Between 1923 and 1926 the NSDAP made no moves towards incorporating a youth wing into the party apparatus and it was two main personalities who continued to work towards that aim on their own initiative. One was Adolf Lenk and the other Kurt Gruber. I won't go into long detail but the upshot was that Kurt Gruber's 'Großdeutsche Jugendbewegung won through.

The 'Hitler-Jugend' was officially created at the 1926 party rally in Weimar. Adolf Hitler had agreed to make the 'Großdeutsche Jugendbewegung' his party youth organisation. Julius Streicher suggested the name 'Hitler-Jugend, Bund deutscher Arbeiterjugend' to Hitler which was accepted and so the HJ was officially born .

Edit: just noticed that you used the words 'pre-war Stu. Which book are you referencing? It doesn't change the 1926 thing but I'd be interested to know which source you're using.
 
Hi guys,

Allow mw to show you my new adquisition, the "solid" version of the Muenchen 1923-1933 Tinnie. A really top and "must have" tinnie, in any of its versions.

So far, I have already 2, so 2 more to go.

Hope you like it.

Regards

Antonio

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Sorry for resurrecting this old thread, but I thought it worthwhile since I could not find a reference anywhere.

I came across this special edition of the Münchner Zeitung reporting about the 1. Gebietstreffen der Hitlerjugend "Hochland" in Munich from August 19 through 21, 1933. Shows this well known tinnie as the event badge.

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I came across this special edition of the Münchner Zeitung reporting about the 1. Gebietstreffen der Hitlerjugend "Hochland" in Munich from August 19 through 21, 1933. Shows this well known tinnie as the event badge.

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copy of 'der-hase-fee' Münchner Zeitung report (for ease of reference)

Hi Guys

My HJ München 1923-1933 will be arriving soon, found this thread, and now just "seeking clarity". No doubt, this Tinnie was manufactured for the 10th anniversary of the Putsch, but since the last post (Dec 2011), has any new information come to light regarding the following: was this a Tinnie / Event Badge only for (as Münchner Zeitung suggests) the participating HJ Hochland Members (HJ 'Hochland' 1. Gebietstreffen in München) during August 1933? - or was it a "Festabzeichen", available, and for sale, to all participating HJ Members during the November 1933 commemoration/event celebration in München?

Looking forward to your opinions, also the Collector Community consensus.

Kind Regards, Ian
 

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In my opinion this badge is a tinnie (Festabzeichen) Ian. The badge mentions the year of the Putsch but the event is a standard regional rally, this one being for Gebiet 19 Hochland. Similar tinnies can be found for the Gebietstreffen of other HJ regions (HJ Gebiete) as you'll know.
 
The badge mentions the year of the Putsch but the event is a standard regional rally, this one being for Gebiet 19 Hochland.

Hi Garry, thanks for the info - please confirm my understanding: HJ Gebiet 19 "Hochland" comprised youth from Gaue München-Oberbayern und Schwaben - this HJ 1923-1933 München (Und Ihr Habt Doch Gesiegt) tinnie was produced only for issue/sale to members of the HJ Gebiet 19 "Hochland" - a Festabzeichen to be worn by participants at their "regional rally" 19-21 August 1933 in München (as per Münchener Zeitung), but not coinciding with, or being part of, the 9 Nov 1933 NSDAP commemoration event of the 10th anniversary of the Putsch. Was it permitted to wear this Festabzeichen after the rally? (to put it crudely, as a sign of "been there, done that").

Apologies for this long-winded, not too eloquent, attempt to get my facts correct.

Kind Regards, Ian
 
Hi Ian,

At the time of this event Gebiet 19 covered the following area:


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In my opinion and based on what I have read, I have to assume that this is a tinnie (Festabzeichen) made for the event with the usual purpose of fundraising and as an outward sign of participation. I think that the tinnie design is demonstrating pride in München's part in the rise of the NSDAP with "1923-1933" marking the period of the "Kampfzeit. I have not read that this badge was afforded any honour status in Gebiet 19 and it certainly wasn't elevated in any way at the national level as was the case with the Potsdam 1. Reichsjugendtag badge. The newspaper supplement shown by der-hase-fee above might give more clues about the thinking behind it. There's one on offer at the Berliner Auktionshaus currently actually.

If we assume that this was a normal tinnie then normally it would only have been worn for the duration of the event. For me this is a very nice-looking, uncommon but otherwise unremarkable tinnie.
 

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Hi Gary - once again, many thanks for the info (also pic and link), clarifies it for me - I've now also managed to get "The Hitler Jugend" SHAEF document "Basic Handbook" (PDF) which gives lots of gen regarding Banne / Gebiete / Uniforms and Gebiete schematic.

All the best, Ian
 
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