Christopher Ailsby and the Golden HJ Honour Badge with Oak leaves.

Or maybe you can give us an example of a very High Class award, that is known to have been manufactured in Solid Gold, Silver and then Zinc?

Can you? this would go some way in establishing a parallel ...


 
The german order was produced in tomback, and latterly in silver.

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The same order but produced in silver

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The german order was produced in tomback, and latterly in silver.
Can you prove this? can you show us one period document to support this claim? One period mention ? anything other than your opinion. (I don't mean what you have seen, or held in hand, i mean reliable, period proof)
 
I own these awards and one can see the material they are made from. I contacted Deumer and Mr Cosens said the first pieces were produced in tomback and afterwards in silver.
 
Oh dear, you seem to have misunderstood.
Can you prove this? can you show us one period document to support this claim? One period mention ? anything other than your opinion.
Not what you have, not what your friends think, not what anyone else thinks, PERIOD PROOF. Anything else is not debatable. If you cant back up what you presume, i suggest you stop wasting Thread space.

 
I think you are quite correct. I should not wast Forum page space. Thus I must leave this in your very capable hands. I am sure you will be able to make the right judgements.
 
Here is a scan of badge N° 180, supposedly a silver HJ Leafy, with 835 Silberstempel. This is the badge that i said was not silver, and looked like whatever it was coated with was flaking off.

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THE FIRST POINT, WHY STAMPED .835, WELL THIS WAS ONE OF THE SIVER GRADE MARKS USED IN GERMANY AT THE TIME. You will find that it was commonly used. So the piece is made of silver grade .835. IT IS NOT SILVER PLATED. It is mercury guilded.
So you are saying, this badge was struck in silver, stamped 835 to denote the planchet being 835/1000 parts german silber, and then Fire-gilded after ? like the Golden Party Badges? (Why? to hide the silver, or give it a protective coating to stop the silver getting scratched?) and this 835 stamp, as you say, was quote: "commonly used" ? What do you mean here ? commonly used on El Cheap-O jewelry, or commonly used on Extremely High class awards ?

• Can you to show us one example of a very high class award, of the same status as the HJ Golden badge with oak leaves, that is Cast/Struck in 835 silver, and then either Fire gilded or gold plated.

• Do you not think that now, in 2010 it is unacceptable to Publish a "collectors Guide" to Nazi awards book, and fill it with your opinion, backed up, assisted and based on NOTHING, except your opinion, a few items you have in your collection and a few chats you had with people.
I contacted Deumer and Mr Cosens said the first pieces were produced in tomback and afterwards in silver

• Last question, i have noticed that there are very few Credits in your book, can i therefore presume that you own most of the material published, badges, awards and photos?

The german order was produced in tomback, and latterly in silver.
You are surely aware, that you are talking about an Award, that was awarded a total of six times to the Dead, and 4 times to the living, and you expect us to believe that it was, as you say, produced in Tombak, and Later in Silver? Now the copies that you own, or the various versions that you have had made up for yourself, or found, bought, borrowed or aquired are of little interest here when it comes to backing this statement up.. i could have a good copy made in Bio-friendly Lead and spraypaint it gold, that would NOT give me the right to "claim" that it was made in lead though, would it.
The irritating thing here, (getting back to the HJ oak leafy badges) is that you have Zero evidence of the award actually being made in anything other than Solid gold, yet you chose to publish a work on it, describing version A, version B, version C..... what gives you this right? what Period evidence have you based this on? what "meat" can you provide to back up these various versions, other than what you have in your hands, or seen, or presume to assume.

The pictures below show an RZM marked golden HJ Oak leaf variant. Taking into consideration that you published a Silver Golden Party badge with RZM mark as Original, writing that M1/120 was a "known maker" of this award, .. you obviously think that the RZM had something to do with these High NSDAP awards, and would therefore not find the RZM logo on these HJ badges as anything "abnormal" ? or not ? it could be just another variant, couldn't it ?






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I think you are quite correct. I should not wast Forum page space. Thus I must leave this in your very capable hands. I am sure you will be able to make the right judgements.

I really don't like back-handed comments like this. Anyone who writes one of these collector reference books has a responsibility to his fellow collectors and anyone else that reads/buys the book. I agree with Jo that a book being published now should represent the absolute cutting-edge of current research. During this discussion you have not offered one single piece of researchable proof in support of the ostensibly illogical existence of multiple 'variants' of such a rare award and now you bow out of the discussion with that cynical throwaway? Poor show Mr Ailsby, very poor show.
 
....that a book being published now should represent the absolute cutting-edge of current research.
That`s a good way of phrasing it.:good: sometimes i use 10 posts to get to a simple sentence like this. :lol:
We are so far ahead with specific research and figures today, have so many Forums, many Archives at our fingertips and access to information that Authors of the 70`s and 80`s would have cut their feet off for... This is reflected in the class of Reference books that are available now, detailed, and on specific subjects, researched to the fullest. There are even people on every Forum who are willing to Translate free of charge for you if you ask, so "not speaking German" is no longer a problem.

I am not saying that a "General Guide to all NS awards book" is not welcome, or needed, but it should at least be factually correct, and filled with much more than the Books of past decades, where random pictures are shown captioned with the Authors opinion.

To be honest, any sane, half-advanced collector today, would look at the Silver [golden] Party badge, RZM marked authenticated in your book, and say.. "If the Author thinks that this item is a period piece, then his Knowledge is not only rock bottom, but any other "Grand" claim in his book pertaining to Higher class awards should be taken with a pinch of salt, or ignored altogether"
Thats the truth, any Golden Party badge collector would laugh at you, even the younger generation.
 
OK lets try and address some of the points. Silver party badge, this was in the order given in the introduction of the German Order. Thus the system was, Golden Party badge, this was for the membership under 100000, then the silver Party badge, followed by the Rune Stern. The German Orer in its grades, The highest class, posthumous award, then the 1st class, awarded with Oakleaves and Swords and in the plain form. The Deumer cased set shows the Grades and is shown on page 44 no 75. The mark on the reverse of the badge shown is that of that Firm. The comment chit chat, in connection of Mr Cosens is rather demeaning. He was the managing director of the firm and gave me the information. Together with this is correspondence with Dr Horsted over the German Order. Photos were made by him of the pieces in the Lüdenshcheid museum, these had been presented by Mr Cosens. It was he who stated to me that the first pieces were produced in tomback, and latterly they were produced in silver. Returning to the badge in hand. The question is raised why are there two types. Research shows clesrly that there was. Thus you have that on the funeral pillow of Dr Todt. Period evidence that the badge was issued in this form. As to construction, Gold, I have seen this from the collection of Stan. Comparing the Gold and the silver guilt they are the same. Again an important observation is that the silver guilt badge is hand chased on the Oakleaves. I think from memory Stan's piece is the same construction. The zinc form is in comparison a not so precise piece. So why the variations in metal. These are not grades but methods of construction. The manufacture could produce in what her liked. The cost in gold and that in silver guilt would at the time not be expedencially great. As there is no makers mark it is extremely hard to ascertain who was responsible for the production. This leaves us with a number of summations. The gold badge was that which was awarded and the silver guilt was one you could buy as a second piece. The next is that a cost cutting exercise gave rise to the use of silver. We are looking at originality of the pieces. Without double both are original. The zinc piece is but a wear piece. Nothing more nothing less. It could have been a shop window, display piece. BUT IT IS NOT AN AWARD PIECE.

To the first piece shown, this is the only one I have seen. It is original and the planchet is hand chased. This is the piece shown on the award document, plus that in Dohle. These are not my imagination or hurried conclusions. The period proof is there to illustrate the existence of this type of award. Again being unmarked, attributing a manufacturer to it is extremely hard.

As a final comment, the quality of production of both pieces is extremely high. Also the method of manufacture is different. Type one has small rivets. These are of a high standard. The second has no rivets. Again one has to have them in hand to appreciate the quality.
 
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Thanks for your effort, but we would prefer some documented Facts, not your opinion. There was never a silver party badge, and the Rune star you show.. well, you got into a debate over this in 2003 on WAF, and could not provide any facts then either.
Out of interest, what was the silver party badge, in your opinion, supposed to be presented for ?
 
the first pieces were produced in tomback, and latterly they were produced in silver.
Going against History here, the first Dead man was awarded his Order, in cheap Tombac as you say, in 1942. Then, much later on, in 1945 when the last 4 were awarded, they changed the cheap Tombac to Silver ? Do you realize how off the wall you sound, when you try and convince us that the Highest NSDAP award, awarded only 10 times, was made in various metals?
PROOF, not a call, chat, letter from someone who remembered something, or told you what you wanted to hear, PROOF, FACTS !
These are not grades but methods of construction. The manufacture could produce in what he liked.
Yes, that's why my Play-dough Golden Party badges are Real.

Discussing with you in pointless, you have published no back up, you have no back up, just what you think.

I will join the rest who, on the sole basis of your Fake and Fantasy Golden, and Silver party badges that you have Authenticated in your book, prove beyond a shadow of any reasonable doubt, that all you have published is your opinion, with no regard for actual history, and in my personal opinion, you have made no progress since you published your first book decades ago, in fact, you have regressed. Yourself, and other Authors like you, need to understand that the collectors are not as gullible as they were when you first started out. You have no right to debate on, and indeed authenticate and publish Awards of such rarity and statue using nothing but your opinion and what you think looks well made, or original. A crying Shame !

If you can start, to bring some documented facts into this discussion, i would be more than prepared to debate with you, until then, it`s all Hot Air and BS.
 
Using the "Fair use" copyright get-out-of-being-sued-clause, for the benefit of those who don't have your book, i am uploading scans of the Fake Golden Party badge, that, same as the different border-HJ oak leaves you are trying to say are real, you have authenticated as Real, Very rare, made by Christian Lauer and dedicated. (page 31)
Do we need more proof than this, that your claims are no more than what you think ? I do not know of a single, avid GPB collector who would agree with you that this badge is genuine.

Mr Ailsby........ i Debunk this GPB all on my own, without a Grand knowledge of the GPB, by a simple, Period Document.

You should try reading the Military Advisor, if you did, you would have noted the original document signed by MB, stating that NO Golden Party badges would be awarded on this date. 20.IV.1944. The very date your "Dedicated, and Authentic, scare badge shows."
(Scan included, MA Vov 22 M°2. page 30 Photo-credit:Joe Wotka) :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Do you see the Weight, that Period Evidence carries, as opposed to mindless rabble and "i think, i know, i heard..."

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Just for your information: today I saw about a dozen of the
Golden HJ Honour Badge with Oak leaves

at the militaria-fair in Reichertshofen at different dealers.

After having read this thread the prices for these fakes seem ridiculous.:lol:

It is good to have this forum, thank you all.
 
....
But people were not allowed to take any pictures within the hall of the fair.
Wow, thats a new one, maybe a sign of the Changing times ? i never had a problem before taking pictures, although not everyone wants you too, you can feel that.... On weitzes Facebook page you can see pictures that he himself (or his wife) have taken at shows? Some of the smaller shows are tricky for sure, and always best to have a few friends with you as sometimes the fake sellers can get quite agressive... but i dont see the problem? why would a dealer not be proud of his stock and want others to see? would also be great advertisment for the Show, showing those who did not attend What they missed....
 
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