Let's talk about the HJ Honour badge for Distinguished Foreigners - HJ Ehrenzeichen für Verdiente Ausländer

That's great mate. Now what we need is someone with one of the brown ones with no MM so that we can get that under some magnification. Actually, they have been accepted as real for a long time now so perhaps the fakers have copied the characteristics of the good badges too so there may well be dodgy brown ones out there.

Thanks very much Jo. Hope you enjoyed it :)
 
The surface has been sealed with a varnish, untypical of the normal Enamel fondant that was used on some, but possibly not all German Enamel Badges. (Recently an article said that Zaponlack was used to seal enamel badges - this is wrong, Zaponlack was used to seal only metal objects like Tinnies and medals - on enamel badges, Fondant was used - same thing, but especially for enamel. In this case the person has used something else, possibly a clear varnish of sorts) in any case, its something you wont find on Period German badges either.

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In order to give you a bit of an idea about what a genuine messing rim should like like, and not the abortion of corrosion seen here, i have used The opaque HJ badge from this thread.
A strange badge for sure, seeing as Opaque enamel can only be traced back (with certainty) to around 1938-1939.... in any case, this particular HJ badge is also found using translucent enamel (see pics) and the images that follow, are taken from the Opaque HJ badge.

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last images of the rim of the opaque HJ badge... see the differences? the way in which the messing rim (not corroded and pock-marked) has captured each knock ?

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That's great mate. Now what we need is someone with one of the brown ones with no MM so that we can get that under some magnification. Actually, they have been accepted as real for a long time now so perhaps the fakers have copied the characteristics of the good badges too so there may well be dodgy brown ones out there.

Thanks very much Jo. Hope you enjoyed it :)
In-hand it looks quite good, apart from the off-center eagle and abortion holes on the back.. The enamel alone tells me that its not period. I know that Bob from GERM-intl. has them made today, but if he was original for the first ones?? who knows... these forgeres have been copying fakes and fakes-of-fakes forever... this is why some think THEY have the original, just because it does not look like the more recent copies..

Strange that its been glued on as well?

And why are the three holes hand-drilled? Two parts were made, thats clear, so the base designer, would know that three holes were needed, seeing as the Eagle was made with three prongs, of shafts.. so why not incorp. this into the design? for easy-montage? why the extra step of having to drill three holes by hand, rather off-center and clumsily too? Is the German Cross made like this? with huge off center holes drilled by hand?

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Yep. I bought this in 2006/7 knowing that the 'sweetshop' badges were considered to be fakes but the badge was part of a deal for this badge and two early Arbeiterjugend badges including a miniature so I thought that I would take a chance on the honour badge at a low price. There seems to be a remarkable lack of clear information on the fakes so it is good to have such a detailed examination carried out.

As I say, it would be good to see one of the accepted badges examined in this way too.
 
that has to be the next step, getting one of the so called good badges into jo's hands to compare the two, anyone got one they would like to volunteer, if i had one i would have no probs it would be a great way of furthering the facts on these badges
 
one of the so called good badges
Stu, i`m not sure i follow, i mean i do, but because i have never been "into" these, so i`m not sure what the "accepted norm" is for these? i gather that we are talking about the Unmarked Brown badge? Right.. if so, then:
The unmarked brown badge with a:

1. Round-ish pin plate & pin plate guide, identical to the HA marked badges yet with no makers mark? and 3 sloppy sunken attachment holes
2. Square pin plate with sloppy sunken holes
3. Square pin plate with big sloppy rivet-knobish-things

As far as markings go, WEITZE says that the marked ones are fake, and eMEDALS too, yet both are offering different badges (at huge prices...) so does it not matter about the attachment, only that in order for them to be REAL, they must be unmarked? and if so, where does this come from?

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Yep. Very unsatisfactory state of affairs. The criteria for acceptance are shown very nicely on this thread:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410459

It shows that no one has a clue. In lieu of any real evidence the criteria are being stipulated by using the badges from Weinand's vet haul as the datum. Look at the crappy soldering on one of the badges in that thread.
 
hi jo

thats why i said one of the so called good badges, because nobody seems to have a clue whats good and whats not, have nver touched these badges for that reason, the brown unmarked are what most people say are the real deal but yet nobody has nothing to add as to why they are lol
 
OK
I guess that would mean looking at all of them, considering that even the dealers cant agree what a good badge should, or must, look like. I could see an argument going around in circles on these even after all of them were tested, because the actual Owner of such an item will have paid lots of money for it, and surely will have convinced themselves that its original, no matter what anyone else posts or claims.

Interesting that there are different brown versions, including the Aurich marked brown and the three above, thats FOUR unmarked brown versions? and only one is supposed to be real? or all? or none? And a complete lack on any physical evidence yet those who own one KNOW its real? Surely someone, or a few, who have invested the 2,000 or whatever these cost would have tried to do more research on these, or at least have a few points that justify their opinion that the item is real?

Maybe its like so many small enamel badges that have been copied, even had copies of the fantasy pieces made - and copies of copies .... so that now, nobody really knows whats going on? except those who sell them, and they are not saying, except to say that The good ones must be unmarked?
 
I'm guessing that if the offer went out to owners of brown badges to have them checked that they wouldn't do it. They would cite the risk involved in posting them or some other risk. As you say, they paid a lot for them and as with the stupid 'DJ' knives people will defend stuff to the death despite the total lack of any evidence to warrant it.
 
Philatelists will only buy a 15,000 Briefmarke if it has been looked at by a specialist under the loop, and all the fine details checked first, and not just pay 15,000 or in some cases triple that from a public auction site, or from a dealer who adds a story to his items. You would not spend 45,000 on a car if you could not test drive it first, and find out the History behind it, i.e Kilometerstand - repairs - paint job - service etc etc, Yet with Third Reich militaria it is the opposite, and after the sale is done, people will get ripped to shreds on Fora based on what the buyer was told, and supported by what the friends of the dealers say and think..

Back to these HJ foreign badges ... where does the only image of it in-wear come from? a reliable source? and where is this image today?

Garry, this hobby has never been about facts, the item is more important, and Owning the item even more! But beware collectors, just because you THINK you have a unique item, does not mean that the dealer may not put up a sign saying ACHTUNG COLLECTORS, WE NOW HAVE SOME MORE, then in 10 years you may find that not only you have that special items, but that all your friends do as well.
 
Here's one of the pics Jo. There's another on the forum, possibly in the other thread on these badges

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A quite good photo is in David Littlejohn's "The Hitler Youth", published in 1988 on page 334.
There is no doubt about it's source or originality.

HI Wim, OK thanks, do you know where the original image is? Not everything that Littlejohn printed is correct, so i would not automatically say that the name alone is any watertight proof, but if the image is known, then i guess it will be good. A pity though that no pictures show any real detail - then again, if you look at all the different brown, and colored badges, they all look the same anyway, so i doubt anything could be found out from a photo.

When you say that you were "warned" not to buy the card with colored badges by a German Dealer, does this mean that you never bought any of these at all? even a brown unmarked badge? or have you ever owned one of these unmarked brown badges?
 
Do you question the photograph Jo? Does it make any sence to know where the photograph is?
I really don't care and I cannot bother myself about it. Do you possibly suggest the photograph
has "been faked"?
Yes, there are mistakes in his book, but a photograph does not lie! The photograph anyway
shows the wearing of one of the badges. And the photograph has not been photo-shopped.
Not in 1988, as most of us did not even know how to handle properly a computer. I guess David
even might have owned this photograph many years before the publishing of his book. Some
photographs I handed over to him in about 1978 or so (for example page 133 and page 320.
I told him what tunic it was, but he mentioned it to be NPEA, which is not correct. In fact it was
one of my tunics from the Reichsschule at Valkenburg in south-Limburg, the Netherlands).

How can we know where the photo is. My friend David died in 2005. That's now over six
years ago. Maybe a lot of his material has been spread around the world. Maybe the new
owner (somebody mentioned me his name, but I have forgotten it) of the material knows
if the photograph is in the old stocked stuff!

No, I never did buy any of them. They asked - even in those days - to much money for the
card with fakes. I surely could not have afforded an original one. But how could I know if
another one would be original. Then I had not seen such a badge. Is it correct that ones
without a marking are original? Who says so. Isn't it so that practically all dealers and
HY-experts are "parotting"?

Nobody is able to show - as far as I know - a shred of paper where such a badge is actually
being mentioned, who the maker was and what color it should have! I think this discussion
about these badges does not lead us to nothing!
 
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Sorry. The last part I have to change. But about thirty years ago - as far as I know -
nobody was able to give some information.
Suddenly, after an hour or so, I remembered having seen a photo from the badge (lousy quality)
in an older magazin. After a quick search I found it. The badge was mentioned in the magazine
"Schwert und Spaten" from September 1941, page 107. A badge was shown and noted as:
das Abzeichen der Hitlerjugend, dass die Reichsjugendführung an verdiente Ausländer verleiht.

That's all. No color or manufacturer is mentioned. I do not know if later somewhat more was noted.
One can be sure it's granting took place since summer or fall 1941.
 
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No, not questioning the photo, just Jim Atwood, and his "original" photos of the Birdshead dagger jumped to mind, and we all know they are faked by Jim himself in the late 1960s.
Was just interested to know if anyone had aquired the photo from Littlejohn, (if it was actually his to start with) seeing as its one of only a few known that show the badge.

No, a discussion will bring nothing, seeing as they (all colors and markings) have been around for such a long time vs no, or little info found.

I believe that this part...
Is it correct that ones without a marking are original? Who says so. Isn't it so that practically all dealers and HY-experts are "parotting"?
Possibly applies to more than just HJ Foreigner Badges, and possibly to the hobby as a whole, especially with items that nobody knows anything definite about, yet most seem to actually know everything about..
 
There is an answer and that is to examine other badges. There is no dispute that the badge existed but as you both say, which are the real ones? That can be established through examination as you did with my fake badge Jo.
 
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