Prototype HJ honour badge for the Alte Garde?

Joined
Apr 12, 2011
Messages
3,305
Thanks Received
1,750
Location
-
For those of you that have had chance to look at the Spring edition of the Military Advisor, What do you think about the Pictured Golden Alte Garde badge by Hoffstätter ? I personally Love it, and cant see how it could be anything else other than what it`s pretending to be, which is a unique and i`m sure bloody rare badge. Now... to find out where the owner lives :sneaky2:
 
It was a pretty good issue in general, Military Advisor that is. I like they seem to have at least something HJ in every issue. I liked the badge as well, but I am still convinced I know little about this militaria stuff and I have been collecting it 20 years now, I learn something new all the time.
 
I learn something new all the time.
Thats the fun part as far as i`m concerned. It never becomes boring, and the hunt is always on for the unusual and unknown. Although not actually documented, the Atlte Garde badge is mentioned, and there is a time frame allowance for this badge to be Genuine. Some fantasy things are easy to conjure up, a $70,000.- Pelican-headed Dagger cast in a Cats toilet-tray, for example, but when you look at most, (like the pelican dagger) it just laughs at you. This badge on the other hand, although there are no documented "orders" or even acknowledgment from the RZM (or Ferd. Hoffstätter) for receiving the design... when you look at it, the feeling is just..."Yes, i`m a goodun"
 
I agree with the author , that this piece is a prototype , however; was never excepted as a standard design .
 
Maybe Hoffstätter had already seen the design for the HJ-Gold Eichenlaub Award, and therefore chose to run with different "leaves" and include the words Alte Garde.. ? in any case, a stunning badge.
 
Thanks for the picture, Jo. I remember Wim Saris mentioned about this badge in one of his threads. Quality of this badge looks marvelous and is indeed in big contrast to the horrible pelikan dagger of CG.:biggrin1:


Regards, Wim
 
Hey Wim, i`m off to your Favorite place just now :biggrin1: Titlis. (not by Helicopter tonight, a Pelican is flying me up there!)
One thing that is noticeable, is that when these Unique, Good items turn up, and every so often they do, they are never accompanied by a Vet bring back story, or backed up with any names first, only facts, rules, regulations and period evidence that give us insight into the period and probabilities of their existence. The way it should be. IMHO, finding one of these, would be, to me, like finding a Josef Fuess D.A.P badge. (Contrary to what Ulrich of England claims in his Deutschland Erwache book, that they probably never existed, they did, there are microfilm photos in the Archives of a finished, enameled version)
 
It was a pretty good issue in general, Military Advisor that is. I like they seem to have at least something HJ in every issue ...
Hi Gents,

well, since all the authors are freelancers, you can also become easily one of them. Just write an article (short or long, doesn't matter) about something you think the collectors will be interested in. Then there would be even more articles about the HJ. As far as I know only Clyde Davis is author of HJ related articlesn in the Military Advisor.

Rgds

Daniel
 
Although not actually documented, the Alte Garde badge is mentioned
Just a small point of syntax :) A badge intended for the Alte Garde is mentioned in Verordnungsblatt der Reichsjugendführung II/4 and later in II/11 but as you know, it isn't described:

Verordnungsblatt II/4 dated 30.6.1934 says the following:

This content can only be viewed by: Blue Group members.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
If the "Alte Garde" badge shown in that article is authentic then it seems that it was designed, made and then rejected at some point between 30.6.1934 and 18.8.1934
Assuming that Hoffstätter was commissioned with making it after it was first announced, when in reality it could have been commissioned a few months earlier, and already made by the time of the announcement. The words Alte Garde mentioned in the first announcement point to the badge already being finished by then, incorporating the words Alte Garde.

The Alte Garde was a term used for NSDAP members, so i would imagine that if it was "rejected" then it would have been rejected on account of the name. But anyway, i dont think we can judge authenticity or not on account of a small-ish image printed in a collectors mag. To make a small badge from paper design to a finished product? Dont forget who Hoffstätter was, they were certainly not a small back-yard room-business with 2 workers responsible for everything, they would have had the manpower and have had die cutters, engravers, workshop floor staff, people who did enameling, people who did nothing else except polish and pack badges/items all day, every day, so when you consider this, a good guess would be a few days from idea to finished product.
 
Yes, I take your point about the design phase being earlier than 30.6.1934 Jo but it might not have been much earlier. Look at the HJ achievement badge: as late as three weeks before their official introduction on 15.5.1934, Verordnungsblatt 122 is asking for design suggestions so clearly the badges didn't yet exist. Also, the DJ achievement badge pictured in the order introducing it doesn't look like the badges that were ultimately awarded. I guess these guys (Schirach, Lauterbacher) were so excited with their new train set in those early days of power that things got very chaotic. What am I saying... we know they did :)

Metallwarenfabrik said:
The Alte Garde was a term used for NSDAP members, so i would imagine that if it was "rejected" then it would have been rejected on account of the name.

Yep, that's what I'm thinking too.

Metallwarenfabrik said:
i dont think we can judge authenticity or not on account of a small-ish image printed in a collectors mag

Indeed. Especially when there is a glaring lack of any other evidence.
 
It does seem to make sense though, when it was first announced, it contains the words Alte Garde, then nothing more is heard, and when it is mentioned again, the words are dropped.

From the reverse image alone, the following observations must be noted:
The way in which the badge is marked, is exactly how Hoffstätter were marking their very early HJ membership badges. Not similar, 100% identical. (link to first attempts by hoffstätter here, unquestionably authentic)

When fakes try and copy a MM, or come out in grand, early "variations" there are usually dead give away signs, like there are on the fake HJ Gold badges that show only the Logo for Hoffstätter. (The same logo that the UK faker Morigi has used for a long time, and still continues to) Link to one of these fakes here.

Now, let`s just forget the obverse, forget the enamel, the appearance and the words Alte Garde, and discuss the makers marks.

How is it, that the writing is identical?

A good forger?



  • [*=1]We can rule this out, as it is just not what we find on fakes, a minute logo, with as many letters in it as this has, cannot, imo, be faked to look exactly the same. I realize that the badge is small, and only an image from a mag, but i have spent long enough chasing after these details on other badges to know that it is identical without needing to hold it, or examine it under a microscope. All the little die flaws and letter flaws found on the original Hoffstätter membership badges are found on this one too, except that on the Alte Garde badge there is a huge die-break flaw across the reverse.
    [*=1]The original reverse used for the membership badges was found after the war, and used to make this alte garde one
    [*=1] We can rule this out as well, because of the size, there were clearly 2 individual dies used for both.

The only way you could explain this, would be to suggest that the original stencil, galvano or whatever Hoffstätter used to reduce their name onto items, was found, and used to reduce the exact same logo onto this, fake, or fantasy badge. A practice that i dont believe has ever happened at all, with any item. At least not one that i have ever observed.

The only conclusion that i can draw from the makers name on the reverse, is that there is no question that it was done using the identical tooling, and master stencil, galvano, die or whatever Hoffstätter used for the other, original badges.
I personally dont see how this can be anything other than 100% legitimate.

You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Back
Top