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  1. #31

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    I believe these are real and of the period. The quality is not something of recent production.
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  2. #32

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    I have no experience as a collector and I have no expertise. Having said this, I do rely on instinct (lol) and I smell a rat. It makes not the lest sense to me that a HJ knife would be engraved with an SS since they were distinctly different organizations.

  3. #33

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    Heinrich, you must remember the time period on these was mid 1933 to early 1934. All of these were limited production Carl Wushof pieces and, I believe, prototypes for HJ, SS, party officals. They came with the HJ Diamond, Flag, SS Runes and Swastika in a red circle on the pommel engraving and had a mix match series of mottos on the blade for the HJ and SS, so it is not an officially produced and approved piece. Wusthof used leftover WWI era officer belt knives as the source and did the engraving post manufacture of the pieces. Much as we see with the police PSS Bayonet that was a modified M98/05 Army Bayonet refurbished for use as the PSS Police Sonderausfurhung Type. I hope someone will do a book on the HJ Knife and early types. I have photos of some of these early pieces in my NPEA first work and in my German Clamshells and Other Bayonets book for those interested.

  4. #34
    ALSO do not forget that the NPEA schools and many local banns where sponsored closely by many organizations such as the SA SS DAF . And it is common to see HJ members wearing the SS SLEEVE EAGLES





  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by waffenleite View Post
    Heinrich, you must remember the time period on these was mid 1933 to early 1934. All of these were limited production Carl Wushof pieces and, I believe, prototypes for HJ, SS, party officals. They came with the HJ Diamond, Flag, SS Runes and Swastika in a red circle on the pommel engraving and had a mix match series of mottos on the blade for the HJ and SS, so it is not an officially produced and approved piece. Wusthof used leftover WWI era officer belt knives as the source and did the engraving post manufacture of the pieces. Much as we see with the police PSS Bayonet that was a modified M98/05 Army Bayonet refurbished for use as the PSS Police Sonderausfurhung Type. I hope someone will do a book on the HJ Knife and early types. I have photos of some of these early pieces in my NPEA first work and in my German Clamshells and Other Bayonets book for those interested.
    Thanks Ron. Do you know of any Wüsthof catalogues/literature which show samples of knives engraved in this manner? As others have said, yes there is a couple of similarities between the type of knife shown in post 1 and those being worn in post 17 but it is impossible to see any engraving and of course we can't see the blades at all and so effectively have no satisfactory way to link post 1 to post 17.

  6. #36

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    Yes, thanks Ron.
    Since they are not approved nor official I suppose they fall into the curiosity rather than the authentic category.

  7. #37

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    Heinrich, these were made as a run of samples to get more business, hence no approval would be forthcoming and, if so, from who. No RZM or party office responsible at this time. They would have been shown to the organization leaders. Also, MANY different knives were used during this period. Most from WWI leftovers with swastikas afixed or inset in the grips. Various examples are known and period photos shown unauthorized knives on belts during the early 1930s.
    Don't expect to find period catalogs with samples pictured as everything was too new and production unknown for the time.
    Curiousity no, unusual and used yes. Too many have come home with veterans for them to be a curiosity. They were used and captured.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by waffenleite View Post
    Heinrich, these were made as a run of samples to get more business, hence no approval would be forthcoming and, if so, from who. No RZM or party office responsible at this time. They would have been shown to the organization leaders. Also, MANY different knives were used during this period. Most from WWI leftovers with swastikas afixed or inset in the grips. Various examples are known and period photos shown unauthorized knives on belts during the early 1930s.
    Don't expect to find period catalogs with samples pictured as everything was too new and production unknown for the time.
    Curiousity no, unusual and used yes. Too many have come home with veterans for them to be a curiosity. They were used and captured.
    What you are saying is pure supposition and a lot of 'I believe this' and 'I think that '. Unless of course you have some information you haven't yet shown because to be frank, your argument could be used to justify almost anything. "these were made as a run of samples to get more business" That is a statement. Do you have proof that these were made as a run of samples?

    If we accept the story that veterans brought some of these back with them/sent them back in 1944/45/46 then it 'proves' nothing more than the fact that these knives were around at that time. It doesn't of course follow that the engraved knives are the same item we see being worn on the period photos in this thread.

    Think about it logically though; what are the chances that a GI found a HJ member with one of these unofficial items still hanging off his belt in war-torn Germany 10 to 12 years after it was bought / presented? Negligible in my opinion... Could have been found during house searches as the GIs secured a town? It's possible but so many of them that they survived in such quantity that there seem to be enough of them to go around today?

    If a late-war photograph ever turns up showing someone wearing one (where the engraving is visible - I know, I'm greedy ) I will wind my neck in a couple of centimetres. Until that time though...

    Yes, odd knives can be seen in wear in the early period but only then. For the HJ/DJ unauthorised knives were forbidden by regulation in order to ensure that the standard HJ knife was worn. The knife under discussion here is not some cheap hunting knife which a boy continued to wear for a few months after his youth organisation was swallowed up by the HJ. No, it is an expensive item for whose period existence no proof exists aside from subjective experience (obtaining them as 'vet bring-backs').

    I get an almost allergic reaction when I hear 'vet bring-back' stories being offered as the sole proof for the period existence of an item so I offer a general apology to those reading this for my tone but decades of 'black sheep' dealers and spin have made Jack a very wary collector...

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    I get an almost allergic reaction when I hear 'vet bring-back' stories being offered as the sole proof for the period existence of an item ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    your argument could be used to justify almost anything...
    Yep, same-old-lame-old we hear on every thread where this kinda item is shown.


    Quote Originally Posted by vintagetime
    The quality is not something of recent production.
    Oh boy, even the oldest TR Fakers-warning catalog that goes back to the 1960`s is warning about these kinda humped up items, in particular the HJ knife, and the new Fantasy Knives. That was over 50 years ago, so far from Modern. We were all warned about these fantasy engavings over 50 years back, but somehow copllectors only want to believe that etching is a modern discovery and only done on repro stuff. (see pic, Original HJ knife, bogus etching)

    Here, the problem with this Internet-collecting-Generation is that they have no idea what the older fakes looked like, and are only aware of the recent fakes and items seen every day on ioffer of Bbay... plenty of the Dealers who are still around today stocked up on this kinda "rare" item, and every now and then throw one to the Monkeys... watch them pro and con it on the forums, and as soon as the majority vote is positive, they start turning up outta the woodwork, Vets that brought them back, and forgot up until today that they had them.
    I would say, Turn to History first, and until any proof turns up that they "could be" then they cant be :closedeyes:
    Period catalogs and Official writings we have, from the early 1920`s to 1945, so if they had anything to do with the TR, then there will be a link of sorts back to them. Thats going to be worth more than 100 threads of this nature, and in the end, debating on them without any facts, is nothing more than personal assumption.
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  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallwarenfabrik View Post
    ...Turn to History first, and until any proof turns up that they "could be" then they cant be..
    That should be turned into a fridge magnet. Very true statement.

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