That's why we're (Russ particularly) pushing Weinand to admit that he doesn't know anything and that the whole 'DJ' knife thing is nothing more than a convenient story with the sole aim of selling the unsaleable. I'm surprised (and pleased) to see him responding but it's just vague evasive stuff which doesn't say anything. This is why he and people like him don't say anything on our forum. They don't see why they should have to prove anything and they see it as irritation that collectors don't just roll over and get their wallets out.
 
The argument that collectors need to show photos of items being reproduced to prove they are reproductions and not period items is an odd angle as well. Lets see all those fake SS camo items being sewn and dyed that get bashed on a daily basis if pictures of fakes being manufactured are necessary to prove they are fakes. I also find it odd that when pressed there is mention of a "hunting dagger" catalog but this is clearly supposed to be an issued membership dagger when adorned with a membership pin. When discussing the only proof of these items being period items is "vet obtained" is pointed out there is the mention of some "Drumer" insignia? Is this mentioned insignia completely non standard and never seen except in these "vet obtained" lots? Also what would be the difference between a "late war example" and an early example. Are we going to see these start to surface with the round DJV pins attached next? I know very little about knives, but please, at least admit there is a least some questions regarding the period use of these knives.
 
Garry, i doubt whether you can "push" anyone of these people. Far too long has their "opinion" or COA been worth more to collectors than common sense. What they lack in general knowledge they make up for with arrogance. Ever try and trip Wittmann up at a show? he just stands there like 12 o`clock half struck and then turns his back on you. Anything that History offers up to destroy their latest fake will be countered with "I have 50 years of experience" we have all seen it on the Gottlieb SA birdshead dagger thread, a fake, supported by bogus photos made by its creator, and 1960s forger Jim Atwood but thats dont mean a thing, as Mr Gottlieb recently wrote in defense of his 65,950.- fake dagger: you will see that I do have a Wittmann certificate on it, who physically inspected the dagger.
So if common sense wont prevail with these fat-cat high rollers, and if History is also not good enough to slap their arrogant faces, then how can you win? how can you even attempt a logical discussion with people who have been, and always will, continue to use the "opinions" of a certain few as "definite proof" that a piece of rubbish, is genuine? these stupid DJ knives fall into the same category.

These High rollers will NEVER dare to show their face on this forum, because here they dont have the support that they have on their Home-Forum, and will get asked logical questions that they will not be able to answer - hence making them look like Muppets in Public, with no defense from their regular few. You see, they all know that its a Game, and they need to make money, not answer stupid Historical questions that prove that their items are rubbish, they are quite happy in trying to convince people the craps good by pulling other reputations out of the bag ... thats all they have, 500 years of "selling-knowledge" between them, and ZERO years of actual research or History.. its a Money-making game to them, that they can ONLY, ONLY. back up by calling one of their friends to say something positive about it, or pointing to a friend who "also sells them" ... but actual knowledge, actual facts?? when did you last see one of these so-called Experts, actually HELPING the community and providing some useful, researched information?? when? it has never happened, because it cant...spaghetti-heads the lot of them... they are Business men, and have nothing in common with collectors or researchers.
 
All true and it looks like the guy on that thread has given Weinand the benefit of the doubt. Discussions like that are a staggering waste of time. Moral of the story? If you want your 'DJ' knife to get a good reception, show it where the dealers hang out. Better still, show it on a forum they (allegedly) control.
 
to be honest gar, as soon as ron made his first comment the guy was sold because thats what he wanted to hear, every negative point made after that was ignored or given a twist ie the people calling it a fake should have proof its a fake as well
 
You're right Stu. Very clear that all the guy wanted was a load of nodding dogs with their thumbs up.
 
Well this is just it, it does not even warrant any time pointing out History or getting people to explain how they fit into history, when all they want, is a thumbs-up, and will surely GET it at that forum, or any other forum where these few dealers are, simply as you stated Garry, they have all sold them, and all continue to sell them, so expecting any factual debate from these people is a waste of time.

The main thing is, They are making themselves look stupid by listing them, and making themselves look even more stupid by posting that they are real, and at the same time showing the community just what "evidence" they place the most importance on, namely EACH OTHER. They know the Truth guys, but to acknowledge the truth, would mean they would have to give many people money back.. bad business practice, that will, no, MUST be avoided at any cost.

Guys, what do we expect? we have seen Wittmans latest Gag with the HJ knives... "I think the mark looks old, therefore for ME, this is SOLID EVIDENCE that the HJ knives were introduced in 1929" i mean? wtf?? c`mon, any normal thinking collector sees the scam, sees the arrogance.. they are really only hurting themselves.. It wont stop, they need to shift the rest before they die.
 
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It would appear that inimicus owns one of these 'DJ' knives and is going to be offering it on the estand. The thread makes perfect sense now... The more charitable viewers of that thread might feel a little sorry for him because he is now facing the loss of every cent he paid for that dud. The less charitable would be right in saying that he should have started that thread before buying the knife. I just hope that there was a dealer behind the sale with a lifetime guarantee and that a precedent will be set.
 
Well, I think most of us would be forgiven for having that thought Russ :) Could the fact that 'inimicus' is selling the knife through estand mean that Ron has refused to take it back? That would be an interesting avenue to explore.
 
I know, I couldn't help it!

I guess if some people want to accept what dealers tell them in regards to this type of knife, more fool them. You only have to see and feel the size of them to know they were not issued to anyone, certainly not as a replacement for the standard HJ knife.

It's been good to re-visit this anyway, as it has been a while.

Regards

Russ
 
Here's an example of an item description designed to convince the potential customer. It clearly worked in this case.


He cites a modern reference book which shows, I assume, pictures of a 'DJ' knife - not period documentary evidence and not a period photo. He cites a veteran. He cites the year 1946. He cites documentation showing that this vet brought the knife back (or that he shipped the item back to the US).

Assuming that all of this stacks up we can be sure of only one thing: that the knife dates to 1946. That's it.

I haven't seen the vet document of course but from those that I've seen they do not describe the items being sent back to such an extent that one could positively identify a particular item and separate it from another item of the same type. Going on those that I've seen they would, I contend, simply say 'knife' or perhaps even 'small knife'. Does the documentation say 'DJ knife'? Did this US soldier know the knife in 1946 as a 'DJ knife'? How does Mr Johnson know to call this a 'DJ knife'? Was the term simply invented or did he see 'Deutsches Jungvolk Fahrtenmesser' on a period label or in a period catalogue or in a period regulation? Or did he, another dealer or indeed a collector simply make the term up?

Mr Shea at ruptured duck prefers the cautious 'available to the DJ' in the item description for the knife he's currently selling. He stops short of saying 'used by', 'issued to' but he's perfectly happy nevertheless to sell it as a 'DJ knife'. It's just that he doesn't want to get toooo specific. It was 'available' to the DJ. What does that mean exactly? Rhetorical question...
 
Garry, I have the book and the pic shows a "DJ" knife. It is not a period pic, and was shot for the book.

The description says:

"DJ Fahrtenmesser (German Youth Knife). Authorised for wear by members of the Deutches Jungvolk (German Youth) in the HJ until the age fourteen at which time, they joined the HJ".

So, this must mean that their "DJ" knives were replaced with an HJ knife when they turned fourteen. So, there should be thousands of these knives in existence, however, they are all described as "rare variants". The story doesn't stack up. This goes against the period photo I took from a documentary, showing DJ boys receiving the standard HJ knife and cross strap.

We've covered this before in this thread, and Mr johnson feels sure he had a document to back this statement up. However, he can't locate it.

It is interesting that both Tom and Ron mention the tan/brown felt washer. Everyone knows these two chaps do their motel buys together, as Ron is always showing their latest hauls. Synchronised stories.

This is just another classic case of "buying the story, not the item".

Regards

Russ
 
Indeed Russ. One of the defenders of the 'DJ' knife (Bob) is deploying the 'experience over substance' argument currently. This is usually the last step before a thread is either closed or begins sliding down the list into obscurity.
 
Yes Garry, I agree. I'm pretty well done with the WAF thread now. It's re-hashing old ground again.

If people want to keep paying for this junk, the dealers will continue to sell them.

How unusual that most of the believers are dealers!

Regards

Russ
 
I'm definitely done with it now. No relevant questions were answered by those who are 'for' these knives. I'm not surprised of course and yet again we have another opportunity wasted by certain parties to bring some clarity to the table.
 
I'm definitely done with it now. No relevant questions were answered by those who are 'for' these knives. I'm not surprised of course and yet again we have another opportunity wasted by certain parties to bring some clarity to the table.
You know what happens when "relevant" questioned are answered.. People inevitably loose money. Best to keep the "what if.." door sligtly ajar, supported by the ring-of-friends who are always selling them, and will have a good word for them until their boxes of stock have been passed down to the willing.
 
I'm quite surprised that they haven't booted me off WAF yet to be honest. It would be par for the course. The last time they booted me was for the same thing - asking questions no one wanted to see being asked. They said I was being rude to another member when I was booted but I have seen that rule being used very selectively in the past on WAF. I'm sure I'm not alone in that...
 
I have just sort of been watching, but when stating that a photo of a member wearing the round member pin was touted as proof that the HJ knife was introduced in the twenties I could not sit idly any longer. That's just outright speculation and it's impossible to precisely date a photo on that alone.
 
That's right Darin. And Ron Weinand accuses the knife sceptics of spreading 'misinformation'.... He refuses to accept (and has refused in the past) that this photo is not evidence for either pre-1933 knives or for those big knives with the engraved handles and blades. One standard for them and another for everyone else it would seem.
 
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