THERE was much made of high quality for the souvenir hungry troops for instance the SA daggers which still pass today as period.

PAUL

Rus I was refering to the knives with diamonds in scabbard, I bought my engraved in 1971 and sold it to Angolia shortly after

militarynut is selling what he calls a BDM knife which had no insignia

Paul,

Sorry, your post read like you were implying the cases of RZM M 7/13 SA daggers were : " much made of high quality for the souvenir hungry troops for instance the SA daggers which still pass today as period."

I didn't correlate what you said in your post with Jim Atwood's endeavors.

All the best ..

Mike
 
Your basic assumption would appear to be (forgive me if I'm wrong) that the knives are what they are purported to be (Weinand/Johnson) and that all we need do is find a theory which adequately explains their appearance.

That approach will indeed lead to ' a thousand shades of grey'.
 
hell I was speaking of soligen people long before ATWOOD and AGOLIA'S crap.
The one thing that bugs me about all this is the blades actually. To be TR they must have been made prior to the defeat or cut down HJ stock after the defeat. The German steel industry did not get fired up again until long after the armastice.

PAUL
 
My apologies if my post came across as being directed toward you personally Fluglehrer. That definitely wasn't my intention. They are very good pictures and thanks for posting them.

Yes, it is eminently possible that the true answer may never be known (although I have my doubts) but in the meantime these knives continue to attract hefty price tags and the mystique surrounding them continues and is indeed propagated on the various forums. Very unhealthy situation for collectors in my opinion.

Quick edit:



This implies that Mr Johnson and Mr Weinand (counsel for the DJ knife if you like) have provided sufficient proof? I only ask because you imply that you agree fully with their take but not completely with mine. They don't have any hard evidence as far as I'm aware. Just interested - not an attack :)

Hi Garry,

No apologies necessary ..

I did not mean to imply that I agree with Mr Johnson and Mr. Weinand any more than I agree with you. Their case, as far as Veteran testimony, is based on hearsay. And yours is on lack of documented proof. I have no reason to doubt their stories, as I have no reason to doubt yours.

I know, the Germans during the TR were meticulous record keepers and sticklers for organization and rules, but they were only human. And as we all know, humans are fallible. This documentation we all seek, may simply never have existed at all or was destroyed. If these little knives were never issued, there wouldn't be any images of them in wear ..

A thousand shades of gray ..

All the best.,

Mike

Never hard feelings, this is supposed to be fun! And this is a very nice forum.
 
Thanks Mike. The proof in the regulations is there but it is indirect in that it never mentions the smaller knives. That could also be viewed as direct proof but I don't want to introduce another shade of grey :)
 
here is a link to one on MILITARYNUT SITE WITH NO INSIGNIA

Hitler Youth

THOUGHTS?

:) Good find Paul. Well, what more is there to say about dealers humping up prices on something they absolutely cannot prove existed? I'm almost tempted to email him for more details...
 
Thanks for the link ..

That site sends chills up my spine.

He's asking $499 for "BDM" ? :cursing:

I paid less than that for the one I have pictured with the HJ insignia attached.

Thoughts.. IMO .. The little knives are very likely TR period made for gifts or kid's toys, but the question is when were the HJ insignia mounted. 1944 or 1964?

Wish I had a time machine ..

I know the people of Solingen assembled edged weapons post war using original parts. They had to do whatever they could to survive. They were doing the same thing with medals and badges. Edged weapons I understand pretty well, but I stay completely away from metals and cloth ..

All the best ..

Mike
 
Last edited:
THIS is probably the best dialog ever on the hj forum with some very interesting thoughts and invite all members to state their views on the important dibject . Believe me you can not have a discussion like this on any other forum where friendship and civility prevail.

PAUL
 
Thought id post these pictures of a small DJ type knife i found recently , no maker and the shots next to a normal HJ knife should give enough size details. Pete,,,,,,,,

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THIS is probably the best dialog ever on the hj forum with some very interesting thoughts and invite all members to state their views on the important dibject . Believe me you can not have a discussion like this on any other forum where friendship and civility prevail.

PAUL

Well put paul
My own thoughts are that these were made for children , weve seen in the past childrens helmets/ rifles etc for sale , and i can see these being brought as presents with the child told that when you are older you can join the DJ/HJ and have the real thing, all hypothetical of course , when these hit the market it would have been logical to link them to the DJ/BDM,when i see a picture of one in wear i will eat this post:001_tongue:

Cheers steve
 
Here's another one that has just come up on the Collectors Guild, described as a scarce DJ variant knife. This one is $400 cheaper than the last plain, un-adorned one I saw on another dealers site, but that one was in better condition.

The Collector's Guild

Regards

Russ
 
Just another quick observation - if the version with the diamond on the scabbard was made specifically for an event or an organisation, it would be logical through the manufacturing process to place the diamond on first, then insert the runners and rivet, thus preventing any paint damage to the rivet area. I believe, if we accept that all of this type seen so far have paint damage at the rivet, then logically it could be concluded they were added as an afterthought for some reason.

Has anyone seen many with the diamond in the grip plate?

Regards

Russ
 
Through my email discussions with LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson, I also had some correspondence with Mr Ron Weinand. He has given me permission to post his reply to my questions.

Before I do that, a reminder to those interested that these knives will be a topic at the upcoming MAX Show Seminar. The show is being held at the Monroe Convention Center, 2-3 October, Monroeville, PA.

Regards

Russ


Dear Russell,
I have been buying Third Reich militaria from veterans for many years, to be exact over fifty. During this time I have bought four of the "DJ" style Hitler Youth Knives. All were in mint to near mint condition showing no previous use by the Germans.
Most of the veterans couldn't remember where they found them, but all did state that they were new and unused when they obtained them. All of the ones I found had the HJ Diamond on the scabbard obverse. None were maker marked.
Now, it is widely known that this style knife WAS available from Solingen manufacturers sans the HJ Diamond and in the same form that we all see from time to time at shows. Some were aluminum hilt and some, especially from Klaas, came with the steel plated hilt. Klaas is KNOWN to have produced this same knife post war in its catalog.
My belief, based on the number of mint "DJ" knives found and the odd number of "bowie blade style" HJ Knives found from WKC, is that when supplies became limited and the demand for HJ Knives continued, certain Solingen manufacturers just converted remaining supplies to cover the HJ demand with "unofficial" style HJ Knives. I believe that this is what we are encountering. No such thing as a BDM or DJ knife in my opinion.
Also, other than the Puma Party Day Knife, I am unsure as to the originality of the other group of HJ style knives with embellished blades. I have NEVER bought such a knife from a veteran and don't know of any that came directly out of the veteran's hands to date. This is just an opinion, not cut in stone.
Ron Weinand
 
Ron's take makes most sense but only four after 50 years of motel buys and where they in fact vet bring backs. They buy allot stuff from walkins they know nothing about.
Ref the enhanced knives mine came straight out of the vets hands with all his other treasures my first big buy in CALGARY Alberta 1970

PAUL
 
Thanks for posting this russ
this is an intresting insight from a well respected collector /historian of TR daggers , and the point regarding Klass daggers being made post war is also of intrest were these maker marked ?

cheers steve
 
I believe the Klaas knives were maker marked, but I stand to be corrected.

Ron's take also raises some more questions in my mind. The point I raise has to do with the limited supplies of HJ knives. There are many examples of mint, un-issued HJ knives with, from memory, varying RZM maker control labels on them. So, there must have been a lot of un-issued HJ's around at wars end. Unless some manufacturers were favoured more heavily than others, I am not sure about these being adopted as replacements for a knife that was still available in large numbers from some manufacturers. The same with SA, SS, Luftwaffe and Army daggers - we don't see any significant variations of design style towards the end of production as radical as we see with this one. This take also pre-supposes the knives already existed in an un-adorned state, at this point for reasons still un-known, which I believe to be correct.

Regards

Russ
 
One other point - if these were issued as replacements for a sanctioned item, I would expect there should be thousands of these knives, with the diamond on the scabbard, still in existence. And with Mr Weinand's vast number of hotel buys and decades of collecting, he has only encountered four of this style, which to me, is a ponderable statistic. I don't take issue with Mr Weinand's opinion, nor anyone else's, just that different theories always raise more questions!

Regards

Russ
 
You raise some very valid points russ,

SA/SS Daggers changed from the original marker mark /nickle silver fittings to plated fittings and RZM marked

2nd lufts to variations in crossguard patterns ? but from what i understand no change in the overall dimensions in any of the above daggers

It doesnt make sense that you would retool to make a smaller HJ knife due to the lack of materiels as the war went on as youve said there are still early HJ knifes on the market that are as bright as a button,

steve
 
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