I believe that in 1939 an order went out banning the wear of dress daggers in favour of the pistol sidearm and at that point much of the dagger sword manufacture ceased. I would further put foreward that manufacture of HJ knives soon ceased also for sure nothing after 44

PAUL
 
It doesnt make sense that you would retool to make a smaller HJ knife due to the lack of materiels as the war went on as youve said there are still early HJ knifes on the market that are as bright as a button,

steve

Steve, I don't think they were specifically made as a replacement during the war, but more likely they already existed for reasons un-known, and then adopted. At least, that is how I read Mr Weinand's view.

I thought that perhaps they were originally made for the commemoratives, then, having loads of un-used and un-etched stock, they morphed into DJ/BDM items! Another whole topic to explore with varying opinions on the authenticity of the commemoratives in the same style as the plain DJ/BDM knife.

Flug, pm sent.

Regards

Russ
 
I have to agree with Paul, that this is probably the best discussion here on the board. After reading over everything, and hopefully I didn't miss it along the way, the thought that popped into my head is "Could these smaller knives have been the "next generation" knives for the HJ?" Building on parts from previous posts, that they are generally in good, unused, like new condition, etc?

Since things did progress and change (Helmet styles, uniform styles) in an effort to speed production or due to lack of materials...anyway, just a thought.

Rob
 
In Tomas Johnsons book volume 2 there is a pic from Die Klinge from 1936 on page 96or97. There is a HJ knife and another knife, in the same size as the DJ knife or bdm knife

Its a period photo

best regards
Fredrik

Hi Fredrik

Volume 2 Page 96 shows an HJ knife and one of these smaller knives. I believe this is a collector pic for the purposes of the book, not a period photo from Die Klinge.

Regards

Russ

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i think your right russ, this is just a pic taken by the author to show in his book and not a period pic, and without any oeriod evidence these daggers will allways be frowned upon,its just hard to see how there can be so many hj/dj pics in excistence but not 1 shows these small daggers
 
See this from post 98 of this 2009 thread:

Dear Russell,
I have been buying Third Reich militaria from veterans for many years, to be exact over fifty. During this time I have bought four of the "DJ" style Hitler Youth Knives. All were in mint to near mint condition showing no previous use by the Germans.
Most of the veterans couldn't remember where they found them, but all did state that they were new and unused when they obtained them. All of the ones I found had the HJ Diamond on the scabbard obverse. None were maker marked.
Now, it is widely known that this style knife WAS available from Solingen manufacturers sans the HJ Diamond and in the same form that we all see from time to time at shows. Some were aluminum hilt and some, especially from Klaas, came with the steel plated hilt. Klaas is KNOWN to have produced this same knife post war in its catalog.
My belief, based on the number of mint "DJ" knives found and the odd number of "bowie blade style" HJ Knives found from WKC, is that when supplies became limited and the demand for HJ Knives continued, certain Solingen manufacturers just converted remaining supplies to cover the HJ demand with "unofficial" style HJ Knives. I believe that this is what we are encountering. No such thing as a BDM or DJ knife in my opinion.
Also, other than the Puma Party Day Knife, I am unsure as to the originality of the other group of HJ style knives with embellished blades. I have NEVER bought such a knife from a veteran and don't know of any that came directly out of the veteran's hands to date. This is just an opinion, not cut in stone.
Ron Weinand

Now see this - sorry to refer to another forum.

Deutsche jugend 'messer - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

It seems that in 3 years, Ron's "belief" is now a "well known late war variation".

I await the evidence.

Regards

Russ
 
He won't have any evidence and going on past experience I expect him to ignore that thread now that you have asked for his sources. It wouldn't be the first time.

It might be useful for viewers of that thread to read our thread here Russ. Any chance that you could link to it from your post on WAF?
 
Garry, at the Max seminar referred to earlier in this thread, one of the 'big 3' dealers said he had a period photo showing this knife in wear. The photo was going to be provided to Frederick Stephens, who was going to send it to me. To date, the dealer has not been able to 'locate it'...

Regards

Russ
 
Figures..

In itself a photo won't change things sufficiently though as you know. It would be an indication but not proof. As an exercise to prove a point I posted this photo a couple of years ago. I think that it proves that photos can't be relied upon as being the sole method of proving anything. Okay, this is a scan of a photo but I'm sure it wouldn't take much to get this onto some period photo paper if someone really needed a photo to act as proof for a given hypothesis.

1st pic is the original and the second is the photoshop manipulation which took around 30 minutes. If I can add a membership badge to a photo like this and indeed remove detail as I have done with the watermark then anyone can.

Edit: if the owner of the photo is a member here (or if anyone knows who the owner is ) please let me know and I'll remove the pic or add a new watermark.

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Good point Garry, and a great example. A photoshop 'artiste' can indeed create anything he wants!

The claims being made about these knives are outrageous, and some people still suck it up.

I guess they need to be further "legitimised" as these people exit their collections with their over-inflated prices and a 'story' with no proof.

I go back to Ron's statement, which is thought provoking - if these are a well known late war variation, how come Ron, who has met thousands of veterans in his motel buys, has only seen 3 or is that 4 of these with the diamond on the scabbard? There should be thousands of these around, just like the correct HJ-DJ fahrtenmesser. It just doesn't add up does it?

Regards

Russ
 
No, it definitely doesn't add up Russ. Perhaps people feel forced into defending the knives because they have sold them in the past having really believed that they were period and that they were used/employed by the DJ as described in the original sales pitch. To now admit that they are post-war products or at the very least not what they were described as being at the time of sale would be difficult and might provoke a wave of complaints and requests for return of the moneys paid. That's pure speculation of course but I guess that it's possible.

Regards

Garry
 
Garry, I think your pure speculation has much substance!

I've placed a link to this thread on WAF.

Regards

Russ
 
What puzzles me the most about these knives is the amount of money people will drop on them, with only opinions and stories as evidence of the period use of them. As for them being directly bought from veterans, I can see that being true, but how many times do people post items for discussion as directly veteran bought that turn out to be fakes or copies? Search the SS forum alone on WAF and you will find numerous threads that show what people say are vet purchased items being trashed as fakes or junk. Puzzling to me that people will drop around $1000 USD on one of these knives based on stories and opinions period.
 
Hi Darin,

Indeed. How many times do you see stories about KC holders selling their crosses over and over again... Vet buys are just another part of the story when it comes to selling stuff. Of course I belive these dealers when they say that they got items from vets but we don't know. The vet might just be a crafty old man with an eye for a deal who sees that his vet status confers legitimacy on anything he gives the dealer/buyer.

The whole collecting scene works on a knife edge (no pun intended). If this stuff were free we would see a whole lot more effort going into researching these items but the fun of research and the preservation of history gets derailed a lot of the time when money is involved. As you say, dropping 1000US on a knife like this and then finding out that it isn't what the dealer told you is gonna hurt and that's when people start taking up contrary positions which they can't back up with evidence. The dealers do the same because they don't want to end up holding the baby. As Russ pointed out, Ron Weinand has changed his mind on the DJ knife despite the fact that nothing has surfaced in the meantime to warrant such a shift in opinion. This does nothing but leave people who own these knives with no choice but to blindly believe and hope that they will get their money back at some point. What Ron and others who want these knives to be real are effectively doing is creating confusion where there is none.
 
Dont forget, the longer certain dealers list and sell these, as the same few names have been, the more they automatically become original. the longer the stuff is not flushed, the easier it comes to "prove" that they are real, pointing back to older sales of them, by "prominent" dealers. There are more "worlds" within History, stuff that we know is real, and then a few dealers who are selling and making, fantasy and selling it as genuine, all using each other as provenance..
 
Indeed and that seems to be what is happening on the WAF thread. Along with Russ and Fred I've said my piece over there but I'm not getting involved in the same old crap. Russ is doing a great job in pushing Weinand for some substance but he won't and can't give it. It's all deflection and vagueness which will help no one except those who either own one of these knives or those hoping to sell one in the future.
 
whats really sad is that people who have these are already justifying them by saying that because shea/wittmann/johnson say they are good then they must be, just goes to show if enough people believe in the bullshit eventually new collectors will believe them, what hope for the future :angry:
 
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