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  1. #41
    there is an interesting knife being shown in the should I clean it thread. It has a bowie style blade with the same scabbard as a normal HJ. I had one of these years ago which was factory engraved and Angolia talked me out of it for one of his early books. The knife itself was extremely worn and there was no doubt of it's period date. I do not believe for a minute that the diamond on scabbard ones are bogus there was a tradition of presentation knives in the HJ. One last point ref photos as the scabbards are identical in shape there would be a tendancy to overlook any differences. CAVEAT EMPTOR always but keep your minds door open. Oh and ref the dealer theory that is so far out to lunch that it is supper time Mr Johnston you for one deserve better than that IMO

    PAUL
    Last edited by Paul Ayerst; 3rd August 2009 at 05:02 AM.

  2. #42
    What's the 'dealer theory'?

  3. #43

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    Paul, can you please elaborate on the tradition of presentation knives?

    I haven't corresponded with Mr Johnson recently but I have asked him some further questions that he will get back to me on when he has some time. Included was the size of the diamond recess on the 'DJ' plate, which appears to be too small to accomodate even the smallest of the HJ diamonds.

    I'm also interested in the 'dealer theory' - not sure what you mean by that.

    Regards

    Russ

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL AYERST View Post
    One last point ref photos as the scabbards are identical in shape there would be a tendancy to overlook any differences.

    PAUL
    Paul, there is a noticable size difference between the small knives and a standard HJ knife. I think it would be fairly easy to tell the difference in a period photo.

    Regards

    Russ

  5. #45
    I think what Paul is referencing in regard to "dealer theory" is this part of Mr. Johnstons post concern a statement made in an earlier post. Whew that sounds confusing.

    "I personally think it is a real cheap shot when forum members indicate that reference book authors are writing their books to promote merchandise sales. 20When I authored Volume I, I was strictly a serious German dagger collector, and not a known dealer in German edged weaponry. A member states on the forum that perhaps the buying public have been led down a rocky road. Hardly! My experience is that reference book authors pour their guts out into their writings attempting to not only educate collectors and share what they have learned over many years, but also to protect collectors from wasting their hard earned money on reproductions. You will find countless examples in my writings on how to identify reproduction Third Reich daggers. It may come as a surprise to some of the forum members, but some reference book authors dont even sell militaria! I took a few minutes just to take a look through some of our own reference books here at JRBM, and I can tell you that the following well-known authors, in addition to myself, feel that the small DJ knife did, in fact, exist in the version with (and in some cases without) the HJ diamond on the scabbard and is pictured in John R. Angolias well-received Daggers, Bayonets, and Fighting Knives of Hitlers Germany, Dominique Veeners Les Armes Blanches Du III Reich, Frederick J. Stephens Edged Weapons of the Third R eich, 1933  1945 (although Fred indicates that it may well be a commercial piece adapted for the HJ youth or a very early semi-official type), John Angolias HJ, Volume I, and David Littlejohns The Hitler Youth. These respected and competentauthors all feel this model Youth knife existed during the period. Additionally, the five experienced partners of the new Empire Auction also, obviously, feel that this small dagger existed during the period, as they presently have one being offered on their website."

  6. #46
    Just had a readback and I think that posts 9 and 10 are the ones Paul may mean. If that's the case then yes, I agree that the premise is harsh but in my defence I was talking in general terms about the potential for manipulation which exists in this hobby and am not singling out authors as the problem. The source is irrelevant - what matters is that information was propagated which has never been substantiated.

    There is no conclusive proof for the 'DJ' knife theory (well, none that has been shown anyway )and plenty against but despite this simple equation Empire Auctions sells (or is selling - I haven't checked back for a while) such a knife as if it were a bombproof 100% certainty that the DJ officially wore these knives.

    ...additionally, the five experienced partners of the new Empire Auction also, obviously, feel that this small dagger existed during the period, as they presently have one being offered on their website."
    That, with respect, means nothing. To 'feel' that these knives are genuine items worn by the DJ is simply not enough when you consider a. the amount being asked for them and b. that the evidence available speaks against them being what the supporters say they are. I wonder if that feeling is based purely on the fact that these knives are period and that to date, noone has been able to prove that they aren't 'DJ knives? I don't know but it's plausible.

    Mr Johnson clearly believes, as do many others, that there is sufficient evidence to state that the DJ wore this knife as an official part of the uniform but no amount of comparison and minute examination of grip plates etc is ever going to prove that. All that can be proven using that approach is that the knife is period but as this is not in dispute anyway I'm not entirely sure of the point.

    I'll be the first to wind my neck in if and when a period document surfaces which states unequivocally that the 'DJ' knife was an officially procured item provisioned for the Jungvolk in place of the standard knife.
    Last edited by Garry; 4th August 2009 at 02:12 PM. Reason: Edited to add more

  7. #47

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    Paul, can you please elaborate on the tradition of presentation knives?

    I've had some further discussion with LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson and Mr Ron Weinand about this topic, and also the commemorative knives. If anyone here is able to attend the MAX show which is being held at the Monroeville Convention Center, October 2-3, Monroeville, PA., Mr Weinand has confirmed to me that this subject will be discussed at the MAX seminar with the Board of Experts, which includes Mr Johnson, Mr Weinand, Frederick Stephens, and others. My understanding is there are differing opinions on certain aspects, so if anyone is able to attend, I'm sure it would be a most interesting discussion.

    Mr Johnson has sent me a small 'DJ' plate for measuring. This one has the diamond recess cut into it. I have measured the recess with some accurate calipers and found the following:

    Recess length is 19mm.

    Recess width is 10.5mm.

    The size is too small to accommodate the smallest known HJ knife diamond, however Mr Johnson has seen examples with an HJ diamond that fits this recess. I'm waiting to hear back whether he has seen these as a single item, and if so, how they were marked on the reverse.

    Here are the pics showing the measures.

    Regards

    Russ
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    Mr Johnson clearly believes, as do many others, that there is sufficient evidence to state that the DJ wore this knife as an official part of the uniform but no amount of comparison and minute examination of grip plates etc is ever going to prove that. All that can be proven using that approach is that the knife is period but as this is not in dispute anyway I'm not entirely sure of the point.
    Garry, the point with the plates is that there are examples with the diamond recess cut into it, and sightings of this version in existence with a diamond in place, as well as the scabbard diamond version, and the plain un-adorned version. The existence of the knife as a period item is agreed, and not in dispute - just its official link to the DJ/BDM. There are multiple versions of the 'DJ' knife, which is a curiosity in itself if it was indeed authorised for wear. So many versions I believe reduces its credibility as an 'official' item even more.

    Regards

    Russ
    Last edited by RussellM; 24th August 2009 at 08:58 PM.

  9. #49

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    By the way, I'll also be 'winding my neck in' if and when a period document surfaces that proves this knife is an officially sanctioned item authorised for wear by the DJ!!

    Regards

    Russ

  10. #50

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    Russ, on those grips you show the split pins go through a circular hole, original 'hj's' ive seen go through a rectangular hole in the grips, anyone seen these circular cuts on hjs?

    Its only a minor point but why change?

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