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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mc View Post
    I would think that if these knives with the diamond on the scabbard were made during the period a better effort would have been made to conceal the damage to the rivet, repainting the entire scabbard if necessary. If the diamond was added directly after the war possibly within a few months after May 1945 the correct black paint that we take for granted possibly was not available. As they are found today all that would have been needed was just a few hand tools and nothing else to make the change. Just my thoughts as nobody knows for sure. Mike
    Mike,

    I do not disagree with your theory. Here's another, If the little knives were fabricated with the intent to defraud, don't you think the fakers would at least invest in a little dab of black paint to touch up their evil doings? If the addition of the insignia was performed during the TR period at the original factory, would it not be possible the knives were liberated before the touch up was performed. Or maybe the factory installer didn't feel it was necessary.

    The bottom line is, a thousand shades of gray ..

    All the best ..

    Mike

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL AYERST View Post
    THERE was much made of high quality for the souvenir hungry troops for instance the SA daggers which still pass today as period.

    PAUL

    Rus I was refering to the knives with diamonds in scabbard, I bought my engraved in 1971 and sold it to Angolia shortly after

    militarynut is selling what he calls a BDM knife which had no insignia
    Paul,

    Sorry, your post read like you were implying the cases of RZM M 7/13 SA daggers were : " much made of high quality for the souvenir hungry troops for instance the SA daggers which still pass today as period."

    I didn't correlate what you said in your post with Jim Atwood's endeavors.

    All the best ..

    Mike

  3. #83
    Your basic assumption would appear to be (forgive me if I'm wrong) that the knives are what they are purported to be (Weinand/Johnson) and that all we need do is find a theory which adequately explains their appearance.

    That approach will indeed lead to ' a thousand shades of grey'.

  4. #84
    hell I was speaking of soligen people long before ATWOOD and AGOLIA'S crap.
    The one thing that bugs me about all this is the blades actually. To be TR they must have been made prior to the defeat or cut down HJ stock after the defeat. The German steel industry did not get fired up again until long after the armastice.

    PAUL

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    My apologies if my post came across as being directed toward you personally Fluglehrer. That definitely wasn't my intention. They are very good pictures and thanks for posting them.

    Yes, it is eminently possible that the true answer may never be known (although I have my doubts) but in the meantime these knives continue to attract hefty price tags and the mystique surrounding them continues and is indeed propagated on the various forums. Very unhealthy situation for collectors in my opinion.

    Quick edit:



    This implies that Mr Johnson and Mr Weinand (counsel for the DJ knife if you like) have provided sufficient proof? I only ask because you imply that you agree fully with their take but not completely with mine. They don't have any hard evidence as far as I'm aware. Just interested - not an attack :)
    Hi Garry,

    No apologies necessary ..

    I did not mean to imply that I agree with Mr Johnson and Mr. Weinand any more than I agree with you. Their case, as far as Veteran testimony, is based on hearsay. And yours is on lack of documented proof. I have no reason to doubt their stories, as I have no reason to doubt yours.

    I know, the Germans during the TR were meticulous record keepers and sticklers for organization and rules, but they were only human. And as we all know, humans are fallible. This documentation we all seek, may simply never have existed at all or was destroyed. If these little knives were never issued, there wouldn't be any images of them in wear ..

    A thousand shades of gray ..

    All the best.,

    Mike

    Never hard feelings, this is supposed to be fun! And this is a very nice forum.

  6. #86
    here is a link to one on MILITARYNUT SITE WITH NO INSIGNIA

    Hitler Youth

    THOUGHTS?

  7. #87
    Thanks Mike. The proof in the regulations is there but it is indirect in that it never mentions the smaller knives. That could also be viewed as direct proof but I don't want to introduce another shade of grey :)

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL AYERST View Post
    here is a link to one on MILITARYNUT SITE WITH NO INSIGNIA

    Hitler Youth

    THOUGHTS?
    :) Good find Paul. Well, what more is there to say about dealers humping up prices on something they absolutely cannot prove existed? I'm almost tempted to email him for more details...

  9. #89

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    Thanks for the link ..

    That site sends chills up my spine.

    He's asking $499 for "BDM" ?

    I paid less than that for the one I have pictured with the HJ insignia attached.

    Thoughts.. IMO .. The little knives are very likely TR period made for gifts or kid's toys, but the question is when were the HJ insignia mounted. 1944 or 1964?

    Wish I had a time machine ..

    I know the people of Solingen assembled edged weapons post war using original parts. They had to do whatever they could to survive. They were doing the same thing with medals and badges. Edged weapons I understand pretty well, but I stay completely away from metals and cloth ..

    All the best ..

    Mike
    Last edited by Fluglehrer; 14th September 2009 at 04:27 PM.

  10. #90
    THIS is probably the best dialog ever on the hj forum with some very interesting thoughts and invite all members to state their views on the important dibject . Believe me you can not have a discussion like this on any other forum where friendship and civility prevail.

    PAUL

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