Evolution of the Hitler Youth / Deutsches Jungvolk knife (HJ/DJ Fahrtenmesser)

Garry

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We have touched on this in other threads but we haven't had one specifically dedicated to how the knife changed over time. I've just seen a knife on another forum with no motto, a high ricasso and RZM symbol from the maker M7/13 Arthur Schüttelhofer. The owner describes it as 'early RZM'. However, the manufacturing instructions for the HJ knife dated 14.9.1935 state:

knives should have the 'Blut und Ehre' motto
knives should be marked on the reverse side of the blade with the RZM symbol, M7 maker number and year of manufacture.

Certainly as far as the regulations are concerned then, this particular knife can't be 'early RZM'.

Anyway, I would look forward to your contributions regarding the evolution of the knife beginning with the early 1933 'Blut und Ehre' knives introduced in July 1933.
 
Here is a quick referance on hj knifes changes through the years from a well known website.

Early Period 1933-1936:

•Thinner blades when compared to late knives
•Magnetic hilt
•A very low or no ricasso
•Maker marked with the name on the blade itself
•Motto
Transitional Period 1936-1938

•Thicker blades
•High ricasso
•Display's both the maker name and logo as well as a RZM designation & date
•Motto
Late Period 1938-1945

•High ricasso
•RZM marked on the ricasso or blade
•Usually no maker name or logo
•No Motto



Regards Mac 66.
 
Hi Scott,

Yes, useful to have a representative list on the thread so let's hit it straight away. For example, the early period is always stated as being 1933-36. That's okay as a rough estimate but I would classify the early period as July 1933 (introduction of a standardised knife) - August 1935 (introduction of RZM markings as stated in post 1 above). However, the question of what the manufacturers did with stocks of blades that did not meet this new requirement must be asked. There must have been a period of grace to give manufacturers time to get rid of stock and then produce the newer knives with RZM markings meaning that knives without RZM marks were possibly being sold into the 'transitional' period.

When considering this transitional period 1936-38, it is worth noting that yes, 1938 was the year in which the motto was discontinued (19.8.1938) but the order notes that existing stocks of knives with the motto were to be sold as normal until depleted. The question of what the manufacturers did with blades that were still in production (with motto) raises its head again because knives assembled using those blades would have satisfied the RZM order and could have been pushed out to retail - perhaps even into the period usually described as 'late'.

Clearing up things like this is what I'm hoping to explore with the thread.
 
Yes the old stock, i remember this from a debate a year or so back pertaining to the year markings, which although were introduced as "law" in the autumn of 1935, there are no 1935 stamped knives :) meaning that old stock was used up until into 1936. And when you consider "old stock" that actually means what a maker had already made in advance, or accumulated up until that date. So how long would it take to use up old stock? The Iron Cross is also a good indicator here, with a new and easier method being devised in 1942, (the Gablonzer method) or making the whole cross in one piece, saving time and money, yet was never adopted because makers had simply tens of thousands of parts pre made the old way.

So in a way, the RZM (as well as LDO) did consider the makers, and not just say "Throw your old stuff way chaps, there are new markings) And how long were these periods of leniency to use up old stock? we will never know.
 
A harder type of hj knife to find is RZM stamped with motto & has no maker logo: "Mottoed RZMs"

You also have RZM stamped blades with makers logo & no motto, "Dual Marked"


Regards Mac 66.
 
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Hi guys
So is no way that exist transitional 1939 knife with motto?

Regards

Hi,

Yes, if we assume that manufacturers adhered strictly to the 1938 regulation, a knife dated 1939 should not have a motto. The question remains though: what did manufacturers do with blades that were already etched when the regulation was published (post #3)? The regulation is saying that such knives were permitted for sale until stocks were exhausted.
 
Hi,

Yes, if we assume that manufacturers adhered strictly to the 1938 regulation, a knife dated 1939 should not have a motto. The question remains though: what did manufacturers do with blades that were already etched when the regulation was published? The regulation is saying that such knives were permitted for sale until stocks were exhausted.
You would have to be dead certain about the manufacturing ablauf. The motto may well have been the very last procedure done, so would be easy to omit, or if a maker did have "some" surplus(1) and if the blade was stamped 1938 & already had the motto, then surely what was already made was allowed to be sold well into 1939.

(1)Knifes were not membership badges, and costly to make, so i very much doubt if any maker made thousands in advance, or kept a reserve of 10,000 like makers of the EK and other trinkets did. This would have been working capital tied up until an order came though, which surely no maker at that time could afford to just have thousands of RM tied up in this any that, with box loads of "stuff" half made just hanging about doing nothing. Just my 5 cents, but i see it this way.
 
...You would have to be dead certain about the manufacturing ablauf. ...

Indeed and I'm hoping that we can explore this and other things that would lead to a more accurate (and more useful) timeline for knives that takes account of the practical difficulties for manufacturers who were trying to keep up with regulation changes and at the same time make some money.
 
ideally we need someone on here who makes knives, and knows the normal way in which a knife would be made - is made - are still made. I remember about 8 years ago, a guy who makes rings came onto GDC, long before that forum went tits-up, and the info he provided, with pics etc.. was worth it`s weight in gold!
 
Thanks guys
One of my HJ is marked 1939 with motto.
It's possible that it was made by the end of 1938 for future sales in 1939?

Regards
Stingray

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Going by what that knife is telling us, it seems to be proof that manufacturers were indeed working within a period of grace (going into 1939) granted by the RZM after the order to discontinue the motto was promulgated.

I know that some are of the opinion that any knife with motto that is also marked with the year 1939 must be a fake but the questions must be asked are these:

how realistic is it to assume that manufacturers instantly switched to production of knives (without motto) in September 1938.
how realistic is the assumption that existing stocks of motto blades were melted down when the order was promulgated?

As I mentioned in post #1, the RZM published HJ knife manufacturing instructions on 14.9.1935 which stated that knives should have the 'Blut und Ehre' motto and that they should be marked with the RZM symbol, M7 maker number and year of manufacture but in the various lists describing early, transitional and late knives, this change is attributed to knives produced between 1936 and 1938. If the compilers of these lists are happy to attribute a knife made in accordance with this new instruction to 1936 rather than to 1935 then why should a knife with motto and the year 1939 be necessarily wrong? In essence, what I'm getting at is this:

14.9.1935: RZM markings are introduced for HJ knives. These knives are however invariably lumped into the band 1936-38 in modern books and on websites.

19.8.1938: the motto is discontinued. The lists now do not give any leeway and put RZM-marked knives with no motto strictly into 1938.

To understand the sequence of events better, it would be very useful to know more about how these knives were made and to establish, for example, whether etching was a single step during production (RZM symbol, year and motto all added at the same time i.e. is it possible that blades had the motto applied first and in a further process the RZM symbol and MM?) and whether any special equipment (jigs for example) were required to get that motto onto the blade (I'm thinking here of things that may have made it difficult for manufacturers to quickly comply with the 19.8.1938 order). It seems logical that the etching was done in one step but logic isn't enough on its own to make a definitive statement on the validity of 1939 knives with motto. Making a descision based on that one thing alone is just as bad as those who go simply by the date of the order and say "impossible that a knife can have the motto and '1939' on it!"

Hopefully Russ and Scott will give their opinion on the knife in post 1 from a blade collector's point of view. As the owner of just one beat-up old Puma I'm not best placed to comment in that regard :)
 
Yes some fresh blood, someone who does not collect or sell, but preferably works in the industry. Maybe there even is dealer out there who has researched the manufacturing process with these? and not just collected and sold according to fish-wife tales.
Your one knife trumps my none, so you have a head start. I spent a while today on u-toob looking for a few hints, i didnt find any, all i found were videos of dealers making themselves look amateur by babbling on about absolute rubbish.

If these "Late" period knives, the knives that have a RZM stamp and number yet no date, are real, then there will need to be a mention somewhere that the date was no longer required, right? The date was stamped on from 1936 onwards, so by say 1939-1940, there can be no excuse for a maker not knowing, or forgetting... what category do collectors put these into?
 
Good thread. Its true what you say, when you look at the checklists on other forums or dealer sites it looks like everything was like strictly organised: 1936 bang! knife changes, 1938, bang! knife changes.Things can't have been like that
 
I like the example shown by Stingray. I do believe that existing stocks of mottoed blades would have been used - it was a business, so trashing them doesn't make sense to me.

A couple of other 'oddball' variations to include are the knives that are maker marked, but RZM'd to a different manufacturer. Possible explanation could be that a fellow manufacturer ran low on stocks and purchased already maker marked blades from another business, but added their own RZM mark to conform to the regulations. I have a list of these somewhere, so I'll try and find it.

Also, all of the Grawiso and Grafrath blades I've seen have been stamped with a 1936 date on the ricasso, both with, and without motto.

Regards

Russ
 
Looking closely at Stingray's knife, it seems that the etch of the RZM mark and the date are different in terms of depth and colour. Could well just be the pics but perhaps these were done at different times. It is certainly an interesting example, but it doesn't have the RZM code, just the date which is curious.

Regards

Russ
 
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Thanks Russ

The maker mark is stamped and the RZM with a year is etched,same as they used on late 1937 and 1938. I have never seen RZM code on Pack HJ knives and i don't think they ever used them.


Regards
Stingray
 
Yes, another example that bucks the system, but is correct! Thanks for showing it.

Regards

Russ
 
Good thread. Its true what you say, when you look at the checklists on other forums or dealer sites it looks like everything was like strictly organised: 1936 bang! knife changes, 1938, bang! knife changes.Things can't have been like that
Crack
I doubt whether this is any one persons fault. It is just something that was once said, and has been adopted as gospel by everyone else. Why? because it is easier to just run with the someone else, and ride off their reputation. Parrot what they wrote long ago. Tell the same lie over and over and eventually it will become truth. Saves doing any in-depth research either.
Anyway, this thread is for you guys, i was shocked by what i read/watched on u-toob last night, with dealers, who dagger collectors swear blind are the best, talking about absolute rubbish. Embarrassing really, so before i get accused of going after "another name" i will bow out from this thread and let the "Professionals" take over.
 
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