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Admin edit:

Subsequent to this thread in 2016 a HJ-Wiki was installed on the forum. This includes a page dedicated to the HJ knife which now includes a lot of the information given by Mike below plus a load more.











The aim of this thread is to show which areas need to be examined when handling a HJ knife in order to separate the originals from the fakes.



Introduction

The Hitler Youth Knife at its introduction into history carried the cost of RM2.88. Although it was not compulsory for HJ members to purchase the knife, only full members were permitted to wear it. It was worn by all ranks on the left side of the belt on summer & winter uniform.

Today this relatively common item can carry a much more daunting price tag often running into many hundreds but regardless of cost the most important aspect to be considered of course is whether the HJ knife you are looking at is an original pre-1945 item.

Copies, reproductions and fakes began to be produced at war's end and continue to be produced to this day. Production standards vary from ghastly and extremely crude to those made with the prime reason to deceive.

Sandwiched between the Good and the Bad are what could be described as the Ugly. Parts daggers are common amongst TR dress daggers but are also occasionally found by the HJ collector. These may be knives displaying period repairs, modern repairs with genuine parts or a mixture of old and new parts. A little knowledge of these permutations can be a great help to the collector in avoiding costly mistakes.




Early Knives

The Motto ‘’Blut und Ehre’’ (Blood and Honour), a facsimile of RJF von Schirach’s own hand writing, was etched into the blade until discontinued by regulations dated the 19th of August 1938. Old stock knives continued to be issued until supplies of the etched blades ran out. Although the exact reason for the removal of the motto is unclear, it is likely that the lowering of production costs may have been the determining factor.


Measurements


Single edged blade measuring 139mm and 27mm wide at the widest point

A 3mm buffer made of brown leather

With a handle of 106mm, grips were produced of black bakelite with a recess for the HJ diamond. Early production diamonds were smaller measuring 23mm high 13mm wide where the later items measured 25mm high 14.5mm wide.



To keep things simple:


Early Key Points 1933-1938


Small diamond
No riscasso,
Motto
Maker Mark

Scabbard:
1 internal runner
Brown Leather Hanger
Leather hanger is occasionally found with an LFS mark


Transitional Key Points

Such knives may display characteristics of both early and late production including:

Small or large diamond
Motto
Maker's mark and RZM mark. Note: there are, as always, a few exceptions for example the M7/14 knife is found with Motto & RZM but no Maker Mark.


Late Knives Key Points 1938-1942


Large diamond
Ricasso
No motto
RZM mark
No maker's mark (again some exceptions Eickhorn etc)

Scabbard:
Two Internal runners
Black Leather hanger (rare examples of a black plastic hanger can be found)
Leather hanger is occasionally marked LFS


The Quick Red Flag Guide

No original knife or scabbard will have 'Made in Germany'. These were manufactured post-war for export
No original scabbard will have a lip on the throat
A solid red diamond, although not always a bad sign, requires further examination
A Blue Diamond for 'Marine-HJ'. Such knives were never provisioned. The Marine-HJ carried the standard HJ knife.
Motto & RZM on the same side of blade with the most common of these fakes being the M7/2 Voos
RZM numbers which start with anything other than M7. Some fakers have marked items M5 etc


So we think we might be on a winner, lets look a little deeper:

Diamond


Is the Diamond orginal enamel with the fish scale pattern?

Is there any movement in the diamond? Ok we're talking a teeny wiggle here. If it doesnt move dont disregard it as yet! If the knife has been made well, the diamond will not move.

Look for any obvious signs that the diamond has been replaced. Wide gaps (remember the dimensions listed previously) or any signs of glue or gunk. However, these knives are old so dont be mislead by a litle dirt in the grips as that dirt has had 70 years to get established!

Is the enamel on the diamond damaged? A chipped or cracked diamond will affect price and desirability.

The Grips

Black Bakelite. With practice you can get a good idea for the finish and materials. The plastic on the reproductions are often may be dull in appearance.
Any Cracks, glue, damage? Look closely as these can easily be overlooked. Signs of a damaged grip for example may be an indication that the grip has been removed at some point.
The rivets: are they clean and untouched? Do they match? Bashed, hammered and odd-sized rivets are a clear indication that some type of repair has been undertaked and calls strongly for a closer inspection.

The Hilt and finger guard

Usually, early production items will be Magnetic and the later items non-magnetic zinc. Reproductions often have a seam running along the finger guard which is not present on original knives.

Is the finger guard still present? In some extreme cases this may have broken off. Careful examination is required in order to establish whether the break is period. A fake knife may sometimes be described as a 'boot knives' in an attempt to lend it some credibility and to justify the missing finger guard.

On late knives: what is the condition of the plating? Wear from the hanger snap is common and occasionally the surface finish of the knife pommel will be completely removed leaving just the dull blue tinge of the zinc showing through. Remember that condition affects price!

Hanger and Scabbard

Leather may occasionally be found stamped LFS with the F within an Oakleaf
Brown leather in early, RZM regulations changed later to Black Leather
Runners within a Scabbard, 1 in early, 2 in late.

You may find a scabbard and knife has been assembled into a set. For example, an early knife in a two-runner black leather scabbard.

Scabbard Paint, is it original? repaints can be easily spotted with practice, often the area around the hanger can be checked to see brush marks. On original items the factory would have assembled the scabbard after painting.

Wear and Tear

Remember, these knives were functional items. They were thrown at trees, sharpened with a vengeance, broken, cracked and generally used and abused. Unlike TR dress daggers that mostly remain mint, HJ's are often found in a 'Oliver Twist' run-down but well-loved state. These knives need homes as much as the mint unissued HJs that are out there!


Most importantly if in doubt double check!

Good Hunting!

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Hi guys this is a Work in progress thread currently with photos to be added etc, any mistakes shout out please iam in work and decided that 2010 was a good start to get a hj guide done for the forum! Mike :)
 
Mike, I suggest you make the original post into an article, and then leave this thread up for questions and answers. Knives are one of the most popular HJ items. That way the original post and other posts that show knives or provide more information is there as part of our articles section for research and verifying items. Great job, lots of information for guys like me that know very little about HJ knives.
 
Mike, just go to the Articles section on the forum, start a new thread, copy and paste your original post and that's it! Piece of cake. Then you can add new info, photos, etc to the article and post in the original thread when you update the article. Keeps the article from getting mucked up with posts so the facts are easy to find! :thumbup:
 
Mike

This is fantastic information!

I am (as you know) buying my first knife and will be educating myself on the subject with expert help like this, in order to expand my collection!

I look forward to your Artcle and will be reading it often, many thanks :thumbup:

Nick
 
Thanks Gary, Yes congrats Nick on your fine 1st purchase of the M7/13.

I'll be trawling for photos and examples so please feel free to contribute, then when its all polished around the edges we'll hopefully have the no.1 hj knife guide for the no.1 hj forum!

Mike
 
As you can see above there is a new feature on the forum. Instead of having to write a new post to say thank you if you found a particular post informative/useful you can simply hit the 'thanks' button as a fast alternative and your appreciation will be seen by the original poster.
 
Image from a 1938 Eickhorn catalog
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