HJ Berlin Olympics 1936 and RPT Nürnberg 1935 knifes

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Has anyone ever proved that those knives are some type of fantasy knife ? I have heard some say they think they are fakes because because no pictures exist of soldiers wearing them. But this is not a type of military knife but a souvenir knife Looks like three of the biggest names in the hobby , Johnson , Wittman and Siegert say they are official event souvenir knives and that's all it takes to make them valuable . Is there any proof of them being a fantasy reproduction knife ? I have them but dont know if they are fakes . Would be nice to know if there is rock solid evidence of them being fakes. Ratler
 
The burden of proof lays with the dealers selling them as genuine items at extremely high prices. They say they were issued to the DJ. If they were, there would be a regulation and a distributor - there is no evidence of either. And they were also souvenir knives for these events! They cannot get their collective stories straight.

Anyone who pays such stupid money is a fool.

There are so many variations it is a joke. They even say the BDM wore them...

Many, many years ago Wittman said he had a photograph of one in wear - but he can't find it - he never will.

Also, when the so-called leaders of the hobby, Wittman and Johnson, advertise an RZM M6 knife, and an HJ knife with a green diamond as genuine, respectively, it puts into doubt a lot of what they say.

Regards

Russ
 
I have a extra bag for one of the Olympics knives. It has a piece missing from it where the makers mark print was. I am planning on sending a piece of this bag where it is torn for carbon dating. I was working on it and got distracted. Hopefully I can get back on it soon. If this bag comes back 1930's it would help identify them as authentic or fantasy. Ratler
 
That will be interesting rattler.

There is no doubt that the knives exist as a knife - it is the strong insistence from the sellers that they were issued, for the DJ and the BDM, last ditch for both organisations etc that needs to be proven. Until this proof materialises, it is still an 'un-attributable' knife. Period.

Regards

Russ
 
That will be interesting rattler.

There is no doubt that the knives exist as a knife - it is the strong insistence from the sellers that they were issued, for the DJ and the BDM, last ditch for both organisations etc that needs to be proven. Until this proof materialises, it is still an 'un-attributable' knife. Period.

Regards

Russ
A dealer should not say that. But for the record I spoke with Tom Wittman about eight months ago about these knives and he told me that they are clearly souvenir pieces sold at events and would never have been issued. And he went on telling me about Col Johnson spending several months in Berlin after the wall fell and found a couple of cases of these knives. And yes those Blue diamond knives are also suspect. I have heard collectors state they were Austrian to Bulgarian to girls HJ. And a guy wanted to sell me one that was supposed to be a chained blue diamond high leader HJ. I think this one beat out all of the other fantasy daggers that I have ever been offered. Before it the chained NSKOV held number one place. Anyway , When I find a lab that will run a carbon 14 test on the bag I will notify the group. Ratler
 
Rattler, Tom Wittman just said it, again - here:

Wittmann Militaria on his sales page said:
HYK #36443C Late DJ Knife
This “DJ” Knife is the style that does not have the swastika applied to the scabbard. This probably was is a example of “last ditch” production, an effort by the NSDAP to provided knives to the HJ, which continued to exist to the bitter end of the war. As we now know, the DJ Knife was never a specific piece slated for the DL alone. The so-called “DJ” version we see is simply a cheaper, late issued variant of the standard knife. In other words, the HJ and DJ knives were totally interchangeable with the organizations.

This example has all aluminum hilt mounts, and they are pristine throughout. The pommel has the silhouette of an eagle's head, and a quillon which rises upward to a teardrop. The grip plates are of black Bakelite or celluloid, having a checkered finish. These plates are retained by aluminum rivets, having dressed heads on the obverse.
The scabbard is straight throughout, and has pristine, full Mint original black paint. The leather belt loop is in place and complete with a retainer loop and working snap. This leather in in Near Mint condition.
The single-edged, slab blade is without a ricasso, and is is still bright and Mint throughout. It retains 100% of the original cross-grain, with a needle-like tip at the end. The original brown felt blade buffer in in place , keeping this blade in a Mint state.
If you are collecting HJ daggers, you certainly need this version of the knife. This is an exceptional example and would fit perfectly into an advanced collection.
Mint. $795.00


So according to Wittman, you have issued knives for the DJ and the HJ, the same knife as a souvenir, which is odd, because how come an 'early' one of these knives is an olympic and party day souvenir, but one of these knives is also a last ditch knife for the HJ, and the DJ, and the BDM. It's total crap and as long as guys are buying them for the whatever their 'story of the day' is, they'll keep selling them and raking it in.

These dealers have shot themselves in the foot so many times with the multitude of different explanations for their existence, that they are a laughing stock. It's pathetic.

Regards

Russ
 
And if you believe the 'found in Berlin when the wall fell down' story, you'll believe anything.

How convenient, a dealer of WW2 German daggers found them in Berlin?

And the hundreds of thousands of people who lived in Berlin, both sides of the wall never found them?

But a dealer of German edged weapons from the USA did? Give me a break.

Why would they be in Berlin?

Not Solingen?

Regards

Russ
 
Ok rattler, a little more digging finds immediate contradiction of what Wittman told you, by Wittman himself. Another fine example of the crap they serve up. See the highlighted paragraph at the end of the description - not found by Johnson at all, but walked into a show in Germany (if you can believe that as well... )

Regards

Russ
Wittmann Militaria on his sales page said:
HYK #38085 DJ Olympic Knife with Original Issue Sack - Emil Voos
This Olympic Souvenir Knife has the same aluminum hilt as we find on DJ knives.
The aluminum has a few mild age stains but barring these is in generally good condition throughout.

The knife is equipped with stag grip plates. The stag has a nice dark tone to its grains throughout. The trimmed edges are just starting to take on a slightly golden tone. Having been protected all of these years they do not have the deep golden oxidation that we normally see on a stag grip. In the center area there is a Hitler Youth enamel diamond. This diamond has perfect enamel throughout and looks great with its red, white, silver and black swastika colors. The grip plates are retained by aluminum rivets which have dressed heads on both sides.
The scabbard shell is a steel tapered type and it is in good condition throughout. The paint shows a little minor age in the surfaces and very minor traces of rust but is in generally good condition overall. The black leather belt loop is riveted to the scabbard, the rivets showing traces of rust and age. The leather retainer loop is intact and sound, but the snap clip does show mild mild evidence of rust.
The blade of this knife is etched on the obverse with a crown above a seal having the Berlin bear in the center. The seal and the crown are in a gilt-like color. Below this in five lines is, “ZUM RUHME / DES SPORTS / ZUR EHRE / DES VATER- / LANDES”. This dedication means, “To the glory of sports and the honor of the Fatherland”. Below this is the German sports eagle being a half open-winged bird having a mobile swastika on its breast area. The bird has the five Olympic rings in his talons. These rings are colored in red, green, gold, blue and black.
The blade still has all of its original crossgraining on it and is still bright. This blade is in near full mint condition. On the reverse, there is the etch of the snake around the stump with the firm’s name and location above and below the stump, “Emil Voos Solingen”. Below this is the protected trademark term, “GES. GESCHÜTZT”. The original leather washer is in place.
Accompanying this fine knife is the original issue sack. It is of a manila paper having the Emil Voos name and location printed on the front with the snake around stump logo. Below this is printed the name of the item, “Fahrtenmesser”. Below this in rubber stamping is the type of knife, “Berliner/Olympiade”, and below this is a printing indicating that the knife is produced of “good steel”.

This is a great opportunity to own one of the last remaining Olympic knives. These knives were found left over in Eastern Germany after the wall went down. There was a large carton of them that was brought into a German show and they were all sold in the middle nineties. Most of these have gone into collections by now so it is rare to see one come up for sale.

 
So now you have a carton of these walked into a show in Germany, not two cases of them found in Berlin by Tom Johnson after the wall came down.

You see, so many stories, they can't keep track of what they're saying.

Regards

Russ
 
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And if you believe the 'found in Berlin when the wall fell down' story, you'll believe anything.

How convenient, a dealer of WW2 German daggers found them in Berlin?

And the hundreds of thousands of people who lived in Berlin, both sides of the wall never found them?

But a dealer of German edged weapons from the USA did? Give me a break.

Why would they be in Berlin?

Not Solingen

Russ
Col Johnson was supposed to have spent about 3 months in Berlin after the wall fell. While there he was to have ran large want ads looking for militaria. Visited shops and also put on a collector show event while there. I can see them being stashed because one did not want to get caught with Nazi items in Berlin back then. And they were not the Reich's Party knife but left over unsold Berlin Olympics knives that were found so it sounds correct to be in the Berlin area.
 
The carbon 14 test will shed the light that is needed on these. Unless one is going to say they were fantasy knives made in the 30s ! And I'm sure some would say that .
 
Sorry to ruin your story, but according to Wittman, the Nurnberg knives were found there as well.

Again, see the highlighted text.

So, why would a bunch of Nurnberg knives be found in Berlin?

Regards

Russ

Wittmann Militaria on his sales page said:

HYK #38208 Nürnberg Reichs Party Day Knife – Puma

This Reichs Party Day Knife is one of the leftovers that was discovered in the late 90's after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

The hilt parts are of nickel, showing modest age. The grip plates are of genuine stag, the obverse plate being brown with nice looking smooth grain. The reverse has more of the traditional antler grain we are used to seeing, with darker brown tones blended with lighter areas. These plates are retained by aluminum rivets with dressed heads on both sides.
The scabbard is in excellent condition, straight throughout and retaining 100% of the original paint. The leather carrying loop and retainer strap and in good condition, with a fine working snap.
The slab-sided blade of this knife has a short ricasso and a false edge at the top. All of the original grain is present. The blade is decorated with gold, black and red enamel. At the top is an open-winged eagle with a wreathed mobile swastika. Below the bird is the name of the event, “Reichspartietag 1935”. Beneath this is the three-tiered turreted castle symbol of Nürnberg and the Nürnberg crest. A very good looking etch here, obviously designed to be sold at the event; apparently they didn't sell well or there wouldn't have been any left over!

The reverse of the blade is marked with the Puma Diamond trademark, complete with the titular feline. Beneath the diamond is the location city of “Solingen”. The original black leather blade washer is in place.
A fine example here, perfect to add to a budding HJ collection, or any collection for that matter.
Near Mint. $1,895.00


Quite a curious line here, almost like he needs to convince himself they are real.


"A very good looking etch here, obviously designed to be sold at the event; apparently they didn't sell well or there wouldn't have been any left over!"
 
As Russ says, Wittman's stories about the knives under discussion on this forum change even on the same sales page. As I pointed out yesterday on another thread, in 2014 he stated that there was no such thing as a "DJ" knife. This, I have heard from some collectors, was due to a bout of sustained pressure after threads on this forum and one on WAF. Now, in 2016, he likes the knives again despite the fact that nothing new whatsoever has been uncovered in support of them? If he were a witness at a DJ knife trial I strongly suspect that they would throw him out for wasting the court's time.
 
I have posted a couple of replies today and they have not shown up. Maybe the subject got closed ? Anyway to make it short I have contacted a university in Georgia about C 14 testing. Hope to get a reply Monday. But after reading it may not be possible to date items this recent. Or date in spans of 20 to 30 years. They may be able to tell if the trees used for the paper were around past 1945 when nuclear weapons testing started. The fallout from testing is absorbed with photosynthesis and a tree used for paper before 1945 should have a lower count than post 45 paper. Hopefully they can date it with C 14 testing. There are labs that can look at the make up of the paper and ink used in the print to give age. Changes were made from the 30s to the 50s that they can detect. This will be a backup test. Also I read where UV light can be used to tell paper's age. Around the late 40's companies began adding brighteners to paper to make it appealing to the eyes and brighter to contrast print. Paper prior to the late 40s do not have this additive. I took a hand held fluorescent lamp and illuminated a piece of a brown paper bag and other brown paper items . And the 5 brown paper dolch bags for the Nuremberg and Olympics knives. All the brown paper items glowed under UV light. White paper glowed much brighter. But the dolch bags did not glow and remained dark. So no brighteners were used in making the bag's paper. Hopefully I will know more about testing Monday. Regards , Ratler
 
Thanks for the info Rattler, will be interesting - I thought the time period might not be long enough but will wait and see. Maybe testing the paint used on the blade might be a better option if it's possible, but could well be in-conclusive as well due to the short time-frame.

But old materials are often used to fabricate items so it may not lead us anywhere.

I doubt the topic was closed - no doubt Garry will have a look and see if something went wrong.

Regards

Russ
 
I have posted a couple of replies today and they have not shown up. Maybe the subject got closed ?

Hi,

I don't see any pending posts from you and according to the server logs from this morning you didn't successfully complete any posts other than the one above. This thread was not closed at any point. Did you see an error dialogue when you made the posts that now don't show up?

Yes, all you can really attempt is paper and ink analysis on the bag. I would be interested to hear the results too.
 
Hi,

I don't see any pending posts from you and according to the server logs from this morning you didn't successfully complete any posts other than the one above. This thread was not closed at any point. Did you see an error dialogue when you made the posts that now don't show up?

Yes, all you can really attempt is paper and ink analysis on the bag. I would be interested to hear the results too.
I fouled up something with the reply. I was just saying that when I show my Nuremberg and Olympics knives to a visitor I always tell them that they are unknown and may be souvenir pieces sold at events or post period knives. And thats what a seller of one should say. I just cannot see these knives issued to anyone. It does not fit with their scheme of things. And I really dont understand why Tom and others would say that because they could still sell them for the same amounts saying they are either what they state they are or unknown. People will buy any knife they put up for sale eventually . When one is bitten badly by the collectors bug , and if they have the money they will buy everything that could possibly be of that period. All I can figure is before selling militaria they owned a failing used car lot ! When selling one of these knives its issued , if one is wanting to sell one to a dealer I'm sure the first thing they would tell the seller is that they are 1960's fantasy knives and cannot give or get much for them. Its money and greed that has bitten them now harder than collecting. Anyway , I have hit on this enough and need help with another item. Has anyone ever seen a trans or late HJ that does not have leather for scabbard cushioning but has a harder type of material made from some type of hard rubber or something ? I dont have it but a friend does. Everything else looks authentic , steel scabbard but instead of leather it has a type of very hard rubber cushioning. Anyone up on this one ? Ratler
 
Rattler, there may be some mis-understanding here.

No-one is saying the olympic and party knives were issued.

The knives that Wittman is saying are issued, are the same knife without the adornments and they are saying that these were last ditch, DJ and HJ, BDM knives etc, without any evidence that proves this is correct.

You need to read the two pinned threads - one on the olympic and party knives, and one on the 'DJ' knives.

There are so many variations, descriptions of essentially the same knife in all instances, that it is a joke.

There is also no evidence at all that the olympic and party knives were sold as souvenirs. These are being sold for up to $2000 each, with no evidence at all. Would you seriously pay that sort of money for one of these knives without any proof that you were being told the truth? As you have just seen, Wittman has contradicted himself with the info he told you - why would party day knives be found in Berlin? Who actually found them - Wittman says Johnson did, and Wittman says they were walked into a show.

Regards

Russ
 
Rattler, there may be some mis-understanding here.

No-one is saying the olympic and party knives were issued.

The knives that Wittman is saying are issued, are the same knife without the adornments and they are saying that these were last ditch, DJ and HJ, BDM knives etc, without any evidence that proves this is correct.

You need to read the two pinned threads - one on the olympic and party knives, and one on the 'DJ' knives.

There are so many variations, descriptions of essentially the same knife in all instances, that it is a joke.

There is also no evidence at all that the olympic and party knives were sold as souvenirs. These are being sold for up to $2000 each, with no evidence at all. Would you seriously pay that sort of money for one of these knives without any proof that you were being told the truth? As you have just seen, Wittman has contradicted himself with the info he told you - why would party day knives be found in Berlin? Who actually found them - Wittman says Johnson did, and Wittman says they were walked into a show.

Regards

Russ
Russ , I may have typed in a way you didnt understand. All I meant was that the dealers should not say they are issued. They should say they are unknown. There is no proof they are issued. There is no proof they are event souvenirs. And there is no proof they are fantasy knives. Just because there is no proof they are authentic that does not mean they are fakes or fantasy. They are unknown. As far as paying $2000.00 for one that is getting a bit up there. About $1400.00 is it for me. And it better be mint with mint bag. I have 5 and they are nice . Only exception is the first one I came into has a torn bag. And I am going to submit it for testing . Test is about $500.00 and may destroy the rest of the bag but to me its worth knowing more about it. I guess what one wants to pay for a item is how deep the pockets are and how bad the bug has bitten. And if you want to have everything involved in the hobby regardless of its history. The knives are well made. Stag horn grip plates , steel scabbards , none of the issues you see with fake repros. They make a nice conversation piece and add to the collection. Not bragging in any way , my collection is large consisting of several high leader daggers and swords , a Felderrnhalle on the high end and boot knives on the low end. And the little rally knives have a place too. Its a personal thing. If one only wants to own all proven pieces thats great. If one wants a mix of everything thats great too. I like them all. And as far as I know no Party Day Knives were found in Berlin. Only the Berlin Olympics Knives were found in Berlin. Go look at Witman;s site or the ad someone pasted here. It is a Berlin Olympics Knife that was part of the Berlin Find. And it could be possible for one of the dealers who was selling Nuremberg Rally knives at the rally to have resided in Berlin or anywhere in Germany. Nuremberg was huge and people came from all over Germany. Or a dealers kid may have inhereted them that lived in Berlin , Dealer may have moved to Berlin. They may have been produced in Solingen but large amounts are shipped to dealers all over Germany. The factory didnt sell single knives and daggers , they sold large wholesale amounts to dealers But I have never been told that any Nuremberg knives were found with the lot in Berlin. Just Berlin knives. Cheers , Ratler
 
I've already posted the ad that says where the party knives were found.

HYK #38208 Nürnberg Reichs Party Day Knife – Puma
This Reichs Party Day Knife is one of the leftovers that was discovered in the late 90's after the fall of the Berlin Wall.


Regards

Russ
 
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