HJ Berlin Olympics 1936 and RPT Nürnberg 1935 knifes

..And there is no proof they are fantasy knives. Just because there is no proof they are authentic that does not mean they are fakes or fantasy.

Clearly I agree with you on the matter of dealers' unrealistic claims but with respect, the part of your post that I have quoted is the kind of thinking that permits people to do the very thing that you don't like, namely, to advertise and sell these knives as Third Reich pieces. The burden of proof lies with those who make the statement "these are authentic TR pieces and were made for purpose X, Y or Z". Sadly, there is an almost uniform refusal on their part to engage in discussion. When, for example, did you last see Wittmann on a forum defending his stance on something? Those who do engage in forum discussion in defence of these contentious items end up floundering because all they can do is parrot what they were told by the "big boys". Meanwhile, the knives remain on sale in the resulting grey area.

The proof for the period existence of the so-called "Deutsches Jungvolk" and "BDM" knives is anecdotal. That's it. Despite the confidence of the dealers and the high price tags, here is the core of the "evidence" for the "DJ" knife:

Wittmann alleges that he has a photo of a HJ boy wearing one of these "DJ" knives. That is very odd of course because why, when Wittmann's alleged photograph shows the knife in a HJ context, would he (and everyone else) sell it as "DJ". Surely if you have a photograph you would not disregard it and sell the knife as something completely different. Unless, of course, there is no photo. After years and years of these knives being sold as "DJ", Wittmann relatively recently stated the following: "it is my opinion that a DJ knife did not actually exist". He doesn't go on to say "If anyone wants their money back just send me your knives". This from a dealer who claims ownership of the only period photograph in the world where one of these knives is shown in wear. He doesn't believe his own anecdote. This is very revealing and very useful.

LTC T Johnson says of the "DJ" knife: "DJ Fahrtenmesser authorized for wear by members of the Deutsches Jungvolk...until the age of fourteen when they joined the HJ". As proof for this he cites a document, never shown or published in any of his books, which he now considers to be lost. Even if we assume that this document did exist, we must ask ourselves about the quality of information it contained when Mr Johnson himself now concedes that a link between the Deutsches Jungvolk and the "DJ" knife cannot be shown to be true.

US Dealer R Weinand: "well-known late-war variation", "found 3 directly from US Army veterans who returned home at the end of the war". Has since changed his mind in concert with Wittmann and now considers the notion of a "DJ" knife to be dead. Instead, and again in concert with Wittmann, he sees the knife as being for HJ and DJ in the ubiquitous "late-war" period. He has offered no proof for any of this. This is an anecdotal. It is not proof.

I could add a few more things but it's all the same and continues to show how precarious the issue of these knives is. Everything currently rests on the weak and crumbling foundation of anecdotal "evidence" not just for the knives I've mentioned but also for the "BDM", RPT and Olympic knives. I wish you luck with the analysis of the paper bag. If you are able to prove something one way or the other that would be very useful for the debate.
 
The "it's real until you can prove it's not" argument is as old as collecting. This train of thought is a sure way to get "questionable" items at best and junk at worst. $1400 USD on a suspect item? Wow. Disposable income.
 
Clearly I agree with you on the matter of dealers' unrealistic claims but with respect, the part of your post that I have quoted is the kind of thinking that permits people to do the very thing that you don't like, namely, to advertise and sell these knives as Third Reich pieces. The burden of proof lies with those who make the statement "these are authentic TR pieces and were made for purpose X, Y or Z". Sadly, there is an almost uniform refusal on their part to engage in discussion. When, for example, did you last see Wittmann on a forum defending his stance on something? Those who do engage in forum discussion in defence of these contentious items end up floundering because all they can do is parrot what they were told by the "big boys". Meanwhile, the knives remain on sale in the resulting grey area.

The proof for the period existence of the so-called "Deutsches Jungvolk" and "BDM" knives is anecdotal. That's it. Despite the confidence of the dealers and the high price tags, here is the core of the "evidence" for the "DJ" knife:

Wittmann alleges that he has a photo of a HJ boy wearing one of these "DJ" knives. That is very odd of course because why, when Wittmann's alleged photograph shows the knife in a HJ context, would he (and everyone else) sell it as "DJ". Surely if you have a photograph you would not disregard it and sell the knife as something completely different. Unless, of course, there is no photo. After years and years of these knives being sold as "DJ", Wittmann relatively recently stated the following: "it is my opinion that a DJ knife did not actually exist". He doesn't go on to say "If anyone wants their money back just send me your knives". This from a dealer who claims ownership of the only period photograph in the world where one of these knives is shown in wear. He doesn't believe his own anecdote. This is very revealing and very useful.

LTC T Johnson says of the "DJ" knife: "DJ Fahrtenmesser authorized for wear by members of the Deutsches Jungvolk...until the age of fourteen when they joined the HJ". As proof for this he cites a document, never shown or published in any of his books, which he now considers to be lost. Even if we assume that this document did exist, we must ask ourselves about the quality of information it contained when Mr Johnson himself now concedes that a link between the Deutsches Jungvolk and the "DJ" knife cannot be shown to be true.

US Dealer R Weinand: "well-known late-war variation", "found 3 directly from US Army veterans who returned home at the end of the war". Has since changed his mind in concert with Wittmann and now considers the notion of a "DJ" knife to be dead. Instead, and again in concert with Wittmann, he sees the knife as being for HJ and DJ in the ubiquitous "late-war" period. He has offered no proof for any of this. This is an anecdotal. It is not proof.

I could add a few more things but it's all the same and continues to show how precarious the issue of these knives is. Everything currently rests on the weak and crumbling foundation of anecdotal "evidence" not just for the knives I've mentioned but also for the "BDM", RPT and Olympic knives. I wish you luck with the analysis of the paper bag. If you are able to prove something one way or the other that would be very useful for the debate.
That sums it up well. If I can get the bag with ink print stating Reich's Party because it locks the knife to the bag it will be enough for me to be satisfied with it being authentic. Some will go on to say that they could have used old paper to make the bags. Then found old 1930s ink to print with. I have seen two documentaries on that issue and what the crooks did was get a old book from years ago that had a blank page in the back. They cut out the page for the stock. But was caught with using a modern ink. And there were just a very few items made. Like one or two. Worth millions if authentic. Then I guess if I had the grips stag horn tested one could say they used old 1930s stag horn. I'm sure after all those test passed as period made some who do not own one will still say they are fantasy. Even if the steel was dated somehow they still would not change their minds. And thats OK. As long as I am satisfied is the bottom line. I got to thinking about no pictures of people wearing those two knives. Being a souvenir item from a rally or games they were made to hold and put in a dresser or chest. People didnt take a lot of everyday picture shots back then like today. If a picture was taken in the 1930s it was done by a pro on a tripod. They made a few hand held cameras but only the rich could afford one. At the mid 30s your everyday person was still trying to get over the days of the harsh treaty life. Today I called a major veterinary teaching university to get my dogs meds refilled. They told me to call a local vet because all the doctors and most students are on spring break. So with that it may be after spring break until the University of Georgia gets back from spring break. Regards , Ratler
 
As I say, I wish you good luck and it would be great if something were to come of the analysis. The lack of even a single period photo of these knives being worn, carried or in the process of being sold or indeed anything else plus the fact that older collectors report seeing these knives appearing suddenly at shows in the 1980s are things that do not bode well for a positive outcome but nevertheless, I respect your commitment to finding more information. I only wish that some of those who put these knives into their collector books had applied themselves as you intend to.
 
Testing the Nuremberg Rally Knife Bag

As I say, I wish you good luck and it would be great if something were to come of the analysis. The lack of even a single period photo of these knives being worn, carried or in the process of being sold or indeed anything else plus the fact that older collectors report seeing these knives appearing suddenly at shows in the 1980s are things that do not bode well for a positive outcome but nevertheless, I respect your commitment to finding more information. I only wish that some of those who put these knives into their collector books had applied themselves as you intend to.
Group , Today I received a message from Dr Alexander Cherkinsky at the University of Georgia regarding testing. He stated that the bag with print cannot be radio carbon dated . He said no items from the first half of the 20th century can be dated that way. But he did say that he could perform another test that will show if the bag and print was produced before the mid to late 40s or afterwards . He can test for the rise of background radioactivity from nuclear bomb testing. If the trees and other items used for the paper and dyes were living before 1944 and cut before that date it should not show a rise. If the trees and plants used for paper and dyes were living past 1944 it will show the rise of background radiation and can date it to a few months. I was happy to read this. So next is to send him the bag for testing. He said it will take a couple of weeks. Regards , Ratler
 
...He can test for the rise of background radioactivity from nuclear bomb testing. If the trees and other items used for the paper and dyes were living before 1944 and cut before that date it should not show a rise. If the trees and plants used for paper and dyes were living past 1944 it will show the rise of background radiation and can date it to a few months. I was happy to read this. So next is to send him the bag for testing. He said it will take a couple of weeks. Regards , Ratler

It has been nearly two years and Rattler hasn't posted anything on this subject since. He hasn't posted anything at all actually even though he continued to visit the forum for a further five months after making post #32 above. Assuming that he actually had it examined, I'm guessing that nothing was discovered about his paper bag because the tone of his posts suggest strongly that he would have darted straight back here to tell us. Or... did they discover that it was indeed post-war paper and ink after all? I think the latter is highly likely but either way it would have been useful information so it is a shame that he didn't let us know. Or was he just here on a shilling mission? Was he a dealer in disguise? These are of course possibilities.
 
LOL, I have exposed a good few printed items, based only on the printing technique. (Photo copied, deskjet, as opposed to offset and plate printing, so I could do "tests" in a few seconds and tell you at least if it was printed in the correct manner, which fake items usualy are not, unless you had the original printing plates or made new printing plates.
He has not been back here in well over a year, maybe something happened to him?
 
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