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  1. #11
    Jo, That ad is great! Thanks for posting it.

  2. #12
    ^^ ditto :)

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metallwarenfabrik View Post
    Haen, this has to be the understatement of the century !
    They were available in the USA in the early 1950`s from (but not only) Golden State Arms for $5,95.- incl. postage each. Made from the same materials, by the same makers who made them pre-45` We know from the 1991 Austrian Newspaper interview with Rudolf Souval that he RZM marked them as well at no extra cost.
    hi jo, do you know if there were any difference in the 50's knifes atall? wouldnt like to see one today that had been say used as a hunting/work knife over the last 60+ years! scary thought!

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ss-collector View Post
    hi jo, do you know if there were any difference in the 50's knifes atall? wouldnt like to see one today that had been say used as a hunting/work knife over the last 60+ years! scary thought!
    Ewan, the last HJ dagger i bought from D. Harris was an pre 35 "Doppel Teufel" A friend of mine had been looking for that MM for ages, so i got it for him. I have no idea about daggers, or HJ daggers, but the question you raise would apply to many other objects made by German/Austrian makers directly after the war as well, i personally don't see how we could distinguish between the pre 45 and post 45 era with these items. But i am sure that there will be people who have done in depth research on this matter and might be able to help ....

  5. #15

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    The introduction for the M7-code for manufacturers of daggers was March 9, 1935 and
    as such mentioned in issue 10 from the "Mitteilungsblatt der RZM". With that date all
    the new codes were announced. These new codes were practically immediately in use
    (about late April, early May 1935).

    One can anyway find M7 marked daggers for the HJ before the summer-season.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by wilhelm saris View Post
    The introduction for the M7-code for manufacturers of daggers was March 9, 1935 and
    as such mentioned in issue 10 from the "Mitteilungsblatt der RZM". With that date all
    the new codes were announced. These new codes were practically immediately in use
    (about late April, early May 1935).

    One can anyway find M7 marked daggers for the HJ before the summer-season.
    Hi Wim
    Maybe you can show me where in this March issue it states that the new codes are to be used from that date onwards on the Knives (or any other product?) All i find when i read that issue is that the new M-codes were listed with reference to "Briefwechsel" and to what new Unterabteilung-sub-department people must address their letters-questions. Also showing them how their Berechtigungsnummer has now changed (there are a few examples in that article) The first time i can find, Mentioned in the RZM papers that HJ knives must show the M7/.. number is like i mentioned in this thread already, Ausgabe 25, September 14 1935. To my knowledge, this is the first time the RZM actually refers to the HJ/DJ knives and mentions the new M7 code.

    You mentioned that These new codes were practically immediately in us. I am not sure what you mean by this, if you mean as the Article in March states, for Briefwechsel/Unterabteilung-administative reasons, then sure, but if you mean that from that date on (March 1935) most makers were using the new codes straight away for their products, i would have to completely disagree with you here. Research shows that it took a long time for all makers to adopt to the new M- numbering system, and from my research, if i have understood you correctly, i would say it was the exact opposite. If this was not the case Wim, why did the RZM have to continuously remind makers to mark their items correctly? we also know, that the last RZM announcement, asking, or better, Reminding makers to mark their item correctly was in 1944 ! so this was a problem that the RZM always had to deal with.

    The announcement in September 1935 also clearly states that the year is also to be added to the knife. But, i have read on this Forum that there are no examples of HJ/DJ daggers with the year 1935 on?? So possibly there was enough "old stock" produced already and makers did not make HJ knives for the last few months of 1935, or they did, but did not follow the rules?

  7. #17

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    When you read the Mitteilungsblatt - and you can - you will find out that other new codes
    were practically in use immediately: L and A for example (new manufactuers were given
    the new codes since spring). I have no time to find out what exactly happened. For me
    daggers are of no interest.
    But as you say: there will have been enough old stocks and it was not needed to "re-code".
    And whenever did manufacturers follow the rules? Not with badges, not with uniforms
    and not with any other party-item. Yes, they often were reminded, but what I said was that
    the codes were announced in March. Did I say otherwise? The code could have been used
    from that date, but if they did?
    One can dispute days and days the proceedings for the RZM and possibly never understand well
    what has happened "in real time"!

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by wilhelm saris View Post
    One can dispute days and days the proceedings for the RZM and possibly never understand well
    what has happened "in real time"!These new codes were practically immediately in use (about late April, early May 1935).
    Hi Wim, the red part is the part i was disagreeing with.
    The rest is very true, i find that the more "answers" you find, or "mentions" of things, that you think you can use as proof, there will always be another side to that "fact" that discounts it as being any form of proof anyway. In other words, the more we try and understand, the more confusing it gets. When one door opens with a new "fact" another three open that dispel using that fact, as fact.
    An example:
    Because there are no 1935 marked HJ knives, that could be used as a "fact, or probability" that there were enough old stocks to use up, and that no daggers were made between Sep 1935 and Jan 1936. The other "thing" though could be that there were daggers made after the mention in Sep 1935, but that the maker(s) did not follow the rules.. so for every "could be", there is almost always a "could not be"

    It is a shame that no real research book has been written about the RZM yet. What would be interesting, but impossible to realize, would be an analysis of the Relationship between the RZM and the Makers, and just how much control they really had over the procedure of organizing and procuring of Official items through the makers and the basic Logistics behind the whole procedure with regard to the different social, financial and economic standings of Germany and internal areas, plus later annexed areasâ–¬in the period 1930-to the period leading up to the war and into it. Also taking into account the material availability, locations with regard ordering certain items from certain makers etc.

  9. #19

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    only one answer: do you really think they have waited to use the M7 code until
    September, when the announcement was made in March? There surely will be
    the one or the other (fanatic) manufacturer that used the code as soon as he could
    after March. Others will not have used it until 1936 or even later, due to their stocks
    or for other reasons!

    Why don't you write a book about RZM yourself. Nothing is impossible to realize. You
    only need to start working!

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wilhelm saris View Post
    only one answer: do you really think they have waited to use the M7 code until
    September, when the announcement was made in March? There surely will be
    the one or the other (fanatic) manufacturer that used the code as soon as he could
    after March. Others will not have used it until 1936 or even later, due to their stocks
    or for other reasons!

    Why don't you write a book about RZM yourself. Nothing is impossible to realize. You
    only need to start working!
    Hi Wim
    Yes i do believe that this was not only possible, but when we look at other items, it certainly did happen, especially multi-piece items being made by different people, like a dagger.
    And like i already said, although the new codes were announced in March, there is no "announcement" stating that from that date, items must be marked with the FULL and new Berechtigungsschein nummer, when the rules are referred to after March, it simply says that the RZM logo must be used, as well as the Berechtigungsnummer. So it would depend for some makers when they changed their berechtigungsnummer, which is also mentioned in the RZM papers but i have no time to look for that.

    So yes, i am sure some makers would have used the New number soon after, but many others not. (a few M7 makers also loose their numbers around this time â–¬ between now and start 1936) as well, as was already discussed on this forum)

    And depend on supply and demand, as well as how much pre-April1935 stock was already in the Sales-outlets, as the announcement pertaining to HJ knives says in the
    Ausgabe 14, page 126/7 , 13 April 1935: Herstellung und verkauf der HJ Fahrtenmesserâ–¬allowing certain outlets to sell the knives made before April 1935 until the 31.December 1935.

    If we have no 1935 marked HJ knives, then surely enough old stock was around, seeing as in September the makers were told in Black and White how to mark the Knives, also with the M7 number, and with the date. Whereas in March/April 1935, they are not told how to mark the knives at all, they are only informed of a new Code. So i try and place myself into a possession of someone who was making items then, when i read the March issue, i see No "announcement" that tells me (as a maker) to Now mark my knives with the M7 number, all i see is a list of new numbers. But, when i read the September issue, i see it is telling Me, as a maker, to now mark my items..step by step, with the M7/ number, and with the year of manufacture. So as a maker, the September issue is a clear message to me how i need to mark my knives. BUT, like i said, apparently there are no 1935 marked knives, so together with the announcement above (ausgabe 14) it is only logical to come to the opinion that no HJ knives were made during that time because old stock was allowed to be sold until the end of December 1935.

    It is complicated, and for sure we could discuss this for years and all we would have are opinions. I try and read the RZM papers as if i was the Boss of the Workshop, and try and interpret them in the way a maker would, ie: what are/is the Article(s) saying to me, what do i need to change now....

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