HJ knife dated 1939 but with Blut und Ehre Motto?

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With the regulations stating that the motto was to be dis-continued on HJ knives from around August 1938, why do we see something like this?

This is not my knife but I present my thoughts here for your comment with the permission of the current owner. I am sure that the owner will make comment as well.

Initial thoughts are that it is most likely a post-war added motto or a complete fake but it is a very interesting knife, so lets look at it a little closer.

Here is the overall reverse view of the knife and scabbard. The blade is dated 1939 from WKC, clearly stamped with the maker and RZM mark as expected. There is some heavy cleaning to the blade, which can be seen. The scabbard has had a re-paint at some point. The reverse grip plates and rivets look good. The hilt is made of zinc, which shows through the worn plating as the blue coloured metal.

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Now, let’s look at the obverse view of the knife and scabbard.
The motto looks to be etched quite strongly but it is not placed in the 'usual' position. It is placed closer to the tip of the blade than is normally seen. The plates and rivets look fine, and they are fitted very well to the hilt.

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Looking at the larger sized, later diamond, it is well fitted to the plate. It looks as though the edges of the diamond are running parallel to the grip plate pattern but they aren’t if you look closely.

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These pics show the damage to the hilt that is commonly seen on HJ knives where their original owners have used them most likely as a hammer on tent pegs or nails etc. So, based on all these factors, the knife itself does appear to be original.

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Looking closer at the motto now, the only thing that really distinguishes it from other mottoed examples is its position on the blade.

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When lined up with, and compared to another WKC mottoed example, there is very little, if any, difference in the formation, spacing and size of the lettering. See comparison here

Zooming in a little closer on the motto shows that it appears to be correctly acid etched, with the rough edges usually seen, not precise or smooth enough to be a photo-etched blade.

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There are also some scratches on the blade, which appear to run through the motto etch as well.

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So to me, the etch looks good, but is it original to the knife? We may never know but it certainly appears to be in my opinion after looking at all of these aspects. If it is a post war added motto, it has been done very well. But if so, why place it in an in-correct position? After going to all the trouble of producing a fine etch, why slip up on something so obvious?

I believe that if we saw this motto on an un-dated blade, we would accept it as original without too much thought, despite the in-correct position.

Sometimes we do see things that challenge our thoughts and what we know, and what we expect to see. Like the maker marked blades with an RZM number assigned to a different manufacturer for example.

I’d be interested in hearing what our fellow forum members think of this most interesting configuration.

And thanks Scott for providing me with the pics!


Regards

Russ





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Hi Russ. Thanks for taking the time to post all this information here regarding my knife. Thus far, the knife has been reviewed positively. But, I'm interested in hearing all opinions on it. It is definitely an unusual piece that has generated a good deal of discussion where it's been shown. I look forward to seeing what folks here have to say, and will keep an eye on this thread to see where we go!

Scott
 
im no expert,.but i know enough about early/trans/late war etc,.i think imo this is a genuine early transitional knife,with the motto just mis-alighned,.as the RZM mark & makermark are off centre aswell,.i think genuine just pooly made.i have a trans RZM WKC 1938 knife which has the Makermark & RZM & date etc centred perfectly & also other knives like RZM M7/33 late war knives with mis-alighned RZM code & makermark,.anyway that just my opinion.

si
 
You're most welcome Scott, very happy to help out, especially with such an interesting piece as this one!

Garry is trying to tidy up the animation for me, but at least it is working now - thankyou Garry!

It might be an idea to fill in how you came into this knife Scott, and what your thoughts are also.

Regards

Russ
 
This knife came from a gentleman I know from warrelics.eu who lives in Holland. I don't know where he got it from however. It had been pretty well reviewed already by the folks at warrelics.eu since it had been posted as a new pickup a few months before I bought it. While they haven't reviewed it in hand, I did manage to get Tom Wittmann, DD Harris and a few other experienced collectors I know to look at some photos and provide their thoughts. Tom Wittmann surprised me a bit by saying he'd never seen a 1939 marked blade with a motto, as I'm sure he's seen many HJ knives. But, on inspection he felt it was original, and like everyone else that has speculated, he thinks it was leftover inventory that was used in 39.

I wonder if perhaps the makers were given a grace period to use up old inventory, and as any producer might, they could have been marking 1939 blades at the end of 1938 to fulfill orders with estimated ship dates in 1939, with a few spillover mottoed blades. On person thought since materials were tight even at this time in the war, producers wouldn't just toss out quality control rejected for cosmetic imperfections but otherwise perfectly good blades. And since the motto was discontinued anyway, WKC might have used the better rejected blades from 1937 or 38 to make use of inventory. It really is hard to say why this knife exists, but it has been overwhelmingly receiving positive reviews on its authenticity in all venues I've shown it to.

For all I know, it might have been something WKC was going to toss out, and a worker assembled it as a full knife to give to their own kid or someone they know. Workers take home stuff their companies are going to throw out all the time, so I don't see why that couldn't have been the case in 1939. But, all we can do is speculate, and be a little intrigued and perhaps annoyed that traditional conventions collectors have relied on for determining authenticity has once again been challenged in regards to being foolproof. It certainly shows a 1939 with motto is worth close examination before throwing in the fake bin, since you may actually be tossing a perfectly good knife by accident. After all, history needs us all to be careful caretakers of these items! :001_smile:
 
I wonder if perhaps the makers were given a grace period to use up old inventory, and as any producer might, they could have been marking 1939 blades at the end of 1938 to fulfill orders with estimated ship dates in 1939, with a few spillover mottoed blades

That's correct Scott. The regulation from 19.8.1938 (ordering the discontinuation of the motto) states that existing stocks of motto knives were to be used up. This is discussed specifically in the following thread (start at post #3):

http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f3...ches-jungvolk-knife-hj-dj-fahrtenmesser-7469/
 
Garry, that's a great thread. Thank you for linking that for me!

To add my two cents to it, it would seem the etch was a step before the stamping, or these 1939's with motto wouldn't likely exist. Or, perhaps the smaller makers didn't have the equipment, personnel, desire, or knowledge to do the motto well enough, and might have purchased pre-mottoed inventory from the larger producers for cost savings. A company like WKC might have had unstamped blades with motto in inventory to sell to the other producers, some of which they probably couldn't unload after August 1938 since those vendors would be switching over to the new regulations. Instead of throwing any they couldn't sell off away, perhaps those last remaining unsold blades became the handful of 1939's we see with motto?

This might also explain why Stingray's knife had different etch depths between the motto and the RZM and maker info. They may have been etched by two different companies, the first doing the motto, and the last the final maker etch. In that case, the final company might have found itself in the same boat as WKC, with a few remaining pre-1939 blades in inventory to sell off in 1939 rather than throw them all out. In a sense, this seems like it may be a mini transitional period #2 for the HJ knife, with more out there than people have previously thought. I wonder how many perfectly good 1939's are rusting in dumps around the world because of this.
 
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