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  1. #1

    HJ and DJ knife wiki pages

    I have been updating these two pages over the last couple of days but have also added a little info to the others in the second list. If anyone has anything to add or has corrections please let me know. Alternatively, you can make the changes to the pages yourself if you have the necessary permissions (if you can call up the pages you have them).

    DJ knife
    HJ knife

    Any additions to the following pages are also welcome:

    BDM knife
    1936 Olympic knife
    1935 Reichsparteitag knife

    Similar Threads:

  2. #2
    Same goes for all of the other pages in the HJ-Wiki. The point of the wiki is to have good, reliable pages that can be updated easily whenever new and/or additional information becomes available. This is the absolute advantage it has over books which, although undoubtedly extremely useful, can't just be quickly updated if the author finds something new in his field after the book hits the market. Alternatively, if the author gets something wrong and later realises it, he can't undo that straight away either. Perhaps that's what happened to some of the militaria authors who only later realised that they had put fakes into their books... Oh let's not go there ;)

    If you would like to find out how to create or edit a new page go here.

  3. #3
    I see that the WAF DJ knife thread has been reopened. The same old faces are jumping in and proclaiming that a Solingen loss report is the proof they have been looking for to prove that the little knives have a legitimate and now proven link to the DJ. I haven't seen the document because, of course, they sensibly banned me :) However, I already know from the comments about it that the document says nothing of the sort. We know that Klaas produced the small knives in iron/steel and therefore that these small knives existed albeit without diamonds. But... there is NO proof of a connection to the DJ as the dealers and the odd partisan WAF moderator claim in their respective posts and sales pitches. Once again they crow and applaud each other but it won't wash and I can almost smell the desperation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Made today by Serge M , WAF moderator
    Speaking of Bowie HJ knives, I recall how many collectors (back in the day), called them fake or 'parts'. It didn't seem to matter how many of us got them from veterans who stated that they acquired them in a factory.
    Until finally Lt. Col. T. Johnson posted one in a book, did some start to 'believe'. However, to this day, not everyone believes these to be period.

    So, on these small knives, where we have evidence or period paper sacks with their printing DJ designation, where there is now documented factory evidence of 'small' HJ type knives being listed as bombing casualties, and where veteran collectors with hundreds of years combined experience in the hobby, have been acquiring these from veterans for no money, as they were mostly, use as a 'Toss In' to Sweeten the Pot kind of item, it doesn't surprise me that they are considered by some collectors today as Non-period.

    HJ diamond attached to scabbard or not, there is growing evidence that these small DJ style knives were period produced. In any case, that is where the evidence is weighing in on the scale for me at this point.
    The moderator Serge M is embarrassing himself once again. He clearly still does not understand the issues with these knives and still, for example, believes that Wittman's pairing of a "DJ" knife with a standard paper bag for the HJ/DJ knife is proof that the DJ wore these small knives. He appears to believe that if it's in a book it must be real even though he undoubtedly knows about the fakes that have been seen in books over the years. He loves a good vet bring-back, motel buy story and just look at that last sentence... Growing evidence? It was shown in black and white on that very thread (and oif course here on the HJ forum) that Klaas produced a small knife similar to those sold today as DJ, BDM, Olympic etc. However, the Klaas knife did NOT have a diamond in the grip or on the scabbard AND it was made from iron/steel. Serge is, once again, being partisan and coming down on the side of the forum sponsors even though he admits that he knows next to zilch about what is being discussed. He is not interested in proof from the doubter side of the discussion but as soon as someone finds something for the dealers he is straight in there.

    Fred is keeping things nicely in check by asking sensible questions and pointing out things that should be obvious to anyone truly interested in history so I think that in a couple of days the thread will go back to sleep with no admissions having been made.

  4. #4

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    I have seen it Garry, but nowhere the abbreviation DJ is used in the letter, which is

    The two differences between the length for the HJ-blade simply will have been caused
    by the shortages of material, during this stage of the war. No more then that. Maybe
    it was indeed planned to make the blade somewhat shorter, but before they could
    make a final decision, it was announced that daggers whatsoever were no longer
    allowed to be manufactured at all. An announcement mentions 260 daggers and
    swords in total. The problem is they have never or hardly ever have seen documentation,
    regulations or what ever, but above all most of them cannot read German and when
    it is related to the Gothic script, they are handicapped.

    I am in constant contact with Fred about this and other matters. Myself I will not ever
    post again on WAF. Visiting yes, posting not and when there is something of my
    interest I send a simple PM to the person who posted and asked a question!! When
    this is interesting me. Otherwise I let them muddle along, those wiseguys!

    Here is a copy of the letter. I did not ask permission, as for what reason I should.
    Everybody "nicks" material without asking (also from my books)!!

    Solingen-Air raid losses.jpg

  5. #5
    Thanks for posting it Wim Yes, as you say, absolutely nothing in there that would help anyone to prove that the DJ (or the DJ and HJ as proposed by Wittmann and Weinand) wore the small knife. Also, nothing about diamonds on scabbards or diamonds in small grip plates. Quite incredible how they clutch at straws and ignore real evidence....

    Fred is doing a great job. He has more patience with these people in his left foot than I have in total.

  6. #6
    They will never understand that these knives are not regulation period made items. Bottom line. The
    loved rules, regulations, photographing and taxing everything. Where is any of this evidence? Simple. It does not exist. Not a single regulation or a single photo in the thousands upon thousands of photos taken of DJ members in the period.

    How is it that we have photographic evidence of such obscure items like homemade
    shoulder straps, homemade Sigrunes, etc. and not a SINGLE photo of one of these little knives in the period? Simple. They just were not used so there are no photos, NONE.

  7. #7
    If it was about "understanding", then one would think, that a serious collector/researcher/author, would at least be able to pronounce the German words they have in print for decades, correctly.
    Or know what they mean - or want to know what they mean. That is clearly not the case though.

    " that TeNo real Bob?" ... "Yes, it`s got the serial number."

  8. #8
    I've updated the DJ knife page with that document now. Assuming that it is authentic, it shows only that a quantity of small blades was present at the factory and that the company describes them as "HJ". This is of no help to those who have sold the small knives we see today as "DJ" and "BDM" for a start and because the document does not give dimensions for these small blades we cannot ascertain if they are the same size as those we see today on the little knives. These simple observations were inexplicably ignored by Weinand and Iqbal.

    Given that we already know that small knives similar in pattern to the larger HJ knife were being produced and sold by Klaas in the 1930s this document reveals nothing new. The discussion is not about whether small knives existed but rather whether they were produced specifically for the Hitler Youth (HJ, DJ, BDM/
    ). This is what dealers and dealer/authors have been telling the collecting public for decades and they still have no proof for any of it.

  9. #9
    Period adverts show that all kinds of knives were made, big, small etc.. what do these knuckle heads think.. that after the HJ/DJ Fahrtenmesser came to be, every other knife was forbidden? ha ha ha ha... Priceless!

  10. #10

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    I always have a big laugh when I read DJ-daggers and especially a dagger for the BDM.
    With this it is obvious they (these nitwits) never have seen the official periodicals, and
    neither the Mitteilungsblatt der
    If such ever existed, I think that without any doubt, this was mentioned (at least once)!

    I still am waiting someone can post a photograph of the dagger, bayonet-type in wear
    or where the diamond is not posititoned in the normal position for the grip (also actually

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