It's shameful to see those knives listed with descriptions like that. Terrible that someone is going to be taken for an expensive ride if they buy any of that stuff.
Let's talk about the 'Deutsches Jungvolk knife' and the 'BDM knife'
These people DO NOT ANSWER questions, they will NEVER engage in any form of debate whatsoever, except to lie, and fabricate stories like Craig Gottlieb did on the SA Birdshead dagger thrad at WAF. They know full well that they sell crap, and they know full well what would happen to them if they joined a forum.... (Gottlieb is registered here, but do you think he will post and say HEY, YOU CALLED ME A LIER, DELETE THIS POST NOW... no he will not, because he knows what would happen, and above all, he knows that he lies!)Has anybody ever challenged TW to fact that these DJ Knifes are Bogus & he is selling them for mega $$$$$ for many years ?
This is FRAUD IMO
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When you challenge, or discuss with normal, honest people, ideas will be tossed around, points of view will be taken into consideration... but these people, only care about one thing, if it is in-print, that makes it real. Just read the Birdshead thread again, keeping these knives in mind, Gottlieb uses the same old rubbish: Wittman is going to put it in his next book, Weinlands thinks its good, etc... these are people with more experience than all of us... they have proof, they have factory photos.... whine whine...
What is not mentioned, is that between them, they have a neat scamming operation going on since 30 years already. They all enjoy, a parasitic relationship with each other.
If i see, a badge of mine, lets just say someone stole the image from my site, posted it on a forum, and is shouting that it is fake... i would be only too willing to post the evidence that it is real, i would also get great pleasure in making these people who "claim" and "assume", look like 13 year old schoolgirls. So why do they not do the same? If these people had any knowledge at all, if they knew ANYTHING of value, they would surely love to jump on a thread, when 100 monkeys (me and you
are screaming fake, and calmly, and collectively post the real evidence and prove their point! If they did this, they would WIN, and they would make me, you, and everyone else look like 13 year old schoolgirls, and surely, if 100 monkeys are screaming, it would give these people great satisfaction to post the truth, and save their good reputations. But they do not, simply because they cannot! , because they have nothing of value to offer, only as you have seen from the Twisted version of Wittman-History... These BDM knives were authorized..... ? how can you write They were authorized when they are a fantasy post war invention? you can write this, because you know the US and UK collectors have been lapping up each word for decades, and your reputation, your name, is worth more than any period evidence.Sickening, yes, but as they taught me when i used to play Rugby, the bigger you are, the harder you fall!!
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Garry, I don't know. There is a 'selected bibliography' in each of the volumes I have. My Volume One is the "Unprecedented Fourth Edition" so I'm not sure whether this contains any changes from the earlier edition(s).
HJ knives in various forms appear in the three editions I have - I don't have all of them.
Regards
Russ
Thanks for looking into it Russ. When the stories are pulled together it all goes back to LTC Johnson, Solingen 1960 as you know and there is still nothing credible to support the 900+ price tag and the illusion. What would be key here I think is to establish whether the knife (without the added diamond) existed in the TR period. This would clear up the 'civilian camping knife' thing. R Weinand mentioned a Klaas catalogue on the WAF thread but didn't actually show it. I wonder if that actually exists?
Thanks Jo. I wonder what he's on about then? He mentioned this catalogue in direct relation to the 'DJ' knife after all.
As you pointed out, House of Swords had the basic camping knife (if indeed that's what it is) in their catalogues in the 70s and 80s as a 'DJ and BDM' knife so I'm wondering where they were sourcing them from.
As you pointed out, House of Swords had the basic camping knife (if indeed that's what it is) in their catalogues in the 70s and 80s as a 'DJ and BDM' knife so I'm wondering where they were sourcing them from.
Mate, i was not working at House of Swords, so cant say. BUT, knowing that they were professional Forgers of blades and swords, daggers of all kinds, not just replica stuff, but inventing fantasy stuff too, and LOTS OF IT... i wouldn't be surprised if they were making them. A camping knife? but we have books about the normal Jugend, before the HJ, and during, the Stahlem Jugend, camps, lagerplätze..hunting etc etc...we also have many dagger catalogs to look through, originals as well as reprints for many many blade makers.... and? no photo, no mention, no nothing. Not forgetting that during the later stages, post 1935-1936 i would think, as Wim already stated somewhere, a direct copy of the HJ-Fahrtenmesser, albeit without insignia, would never have been allowed.
Who was supposed to take them CAMPING? the Youth? well the Youth were in the HJ, it was not just a weekend club, and when they went camping, they would surely have taken their normal, standard, HJ knives with them. Or the very young Youth? the DJ, or Cubs as Atwood calls them? They were allowed to buy (or received) a direct copy of the HJ-fahrtenmesser, without HJ insignia? really? The BDM? tooling up women for any reason, is a bad idea (lol) and as we know, it just never happened during the Third Reich.
Camping knives? made and sold, and advertised by one special maker, for camping, in an illustrious PERIOD makers catalog that no swine has ever seen? you know what i smell? i smell a "THESE WERE AUTHORIZED..." scam mate.
Yeah I know you didn't work there and I agree with the rest of what you said Don't misconstrue my questions as an attempt to prove Johnson et al right or as an attempt to legitimise the knife mate. I don't believe any of the stories but the wiki page is impartial and needs to explore every aspect of these knives. To that end we need to look at what the dealers, authors, owners etc say so that we can examine each statement with a view to showing that they are wrong and indeed whether they are right on some points. Know what I mean?
Don't misconstrue my questions as an attempt to prove Johnson et al right or as an attempt to legitimise the knife mate. I don't believe any of the stories but the wiki page is impartial and needs to explore every aspect of these knives. To that end we need to look at what the dealers, authors, owners etc say so that we can examine each statement with a view to showing that they are wrong and indeed whether they are right on some points. Know what I mean? 
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I do have this 1938 version catalogue (just a b/w copy). There is only one article-number Nr. 203 for Fahrtenmesser für HJ. und DJ.
on page 13. On page 15 the price-list mentions "Original HJ.-Fahrtenmesser" for 3.- RM.
There is a BUT:
I even doubt the cataloque shown is an original one, as it was reprinted in bigger quantities, I thought in the seventies.
A far as I remember and as Weinand says: the cataloque I bought was neither attached to the red binding.
I paid about ten guilders for this reprint in those days (my beginning days of collecting)! I gave the reprint-cataloque to a friend,
many years ago!
By the way: in about April 1933 knives were offered in various forms for scouting and youth-organizations.
Here is a copy of a page from a list of materials offered to those boys! And what is NOT included at all: a Fahrtenmesser for HJ/DJ!!
on page 13. On page 15 the price-list mentions "Original HJ.-Fahrtenmesser" for 3.- RM.
There is a BUT:
I even doubt the cataloque shown is an original one, as it was reprinted in bigger quantities, I thought in the seventies.
A far as I remember and as Weinand says: the cataloque I bought was neither attached to the red binding.
I paid about ten guilders for this reprint in those days (my beginning days of collecting)! I gave the reprint-cataloque to a friend,
many years ago!
By the way: in about April 1933 knives were offered in various forms for scouting and youth-organizations.
Here is a copy of a page from a list of materials offered to those boys! And what is NOT included at all: a Fahrtenmesser for HJ/DJ!!
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Yeah I know you didn't work there and I agree with the rest of what you said
I know edzackery what you mean, and i agree. Although for the layman, not much else is needed except common sense.
Once you have seen what these critters are happy to PRINT ! i.E: These were authorized.... and then take all the examples of crap, plain crap stuff, and it all traces back to one of these people, with the age old He has a photo but cant find it, he has a catalog but cant find it... OK if that info was coming from a reputable researcher, but these people are not researchers, they are the people who LIE, the people who print that there were Official Orders for something, but forget to mention that there actually was never an order, and that when they write there was, they are in fact just stringing words together that should never be printed without any footnotes.
By official orders i mean "These were authorized" because for something to be "Authorized" there must be an official Order, a letter or mention from a NSDAP top-wig, saying that said item was now "Authorized" or at the very least, mentioning it.
Lets take this one step further, and go back again, to the Birdshgead daggers, which it was also said, and even published by the twins, that there is, quote, An original Eickhorn period, Factory document, proving the existence of these ultra-rare daggers. And when, FINALLY, the whole image was published online, this Period, factory document - that was shown in-print - was what? see image. ha ha ha ha. So you see, even when these people really do, have period evidence, the PROOF that they use to base their whole story on, it turns out to be a joke..a bad joke.
Image one is the In-print twins version, read the description, and image two, is the full image..... so you see.
edit: Thanks Wim, yes there are in-wear photographs of these kinds of knives being worn, they do not look like the BDM/DJ knives though
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Many Thanks Wim. The 1933 reference is not only further circumstantial evidence that the HJ/DJ Fahrtenmesser wasn't around yet but also indirect evidence that the unofficial knives like the E. Pack u. Söhne Hj knives hadn't yet made their appearance either.
Edit: added 'circumstantial'
I know edzackery what you mean, and i agree. Although for the layman, not much else is needed except common sense.
Once you have seen what these critters are happy to PRINT ! i.E: These were authorized.... and then take all the examples of crap, plain crap stuff, and it all traces back to one of these people, with the age old He has a photo but cant find it, he has a catalog but cant find it... OK if that info was coming from a reputable researcher, but these people are not researchers, they are the people who LIE, the people who print that there were Official Orders for something, but forget to mention that there actually was never an order, and that when they write there was, they are in fact just stringing words together that should never be printed without any footnotes.
By official orders i mean "These were authorized" because for something to be "Authorized" there must be an official Order, a letter or mention from a NSDAP top-wig, saying that said item was now "Authorized" or at the very least, mentioning it.
Lets take this one step further, and go back again, to the Birdshgead daggers, which it was also said, and even published by the twins, that there is, quote, An original Eickhorn period, Factory document, proving the existence of these ultra-rare daggers. And when, FINALLY, the whole image was published online, this Period, factory document - that was shown in-print - was what? see image. ha ha ha ha. So you see, even when these people really do, have period evidence, the PROOF that they use to base their whole story on, it turns out to be a joke..a bad joke.
Image one is the In-print twins version, read the description, and image two, is the full image..... so you see.
edit: Thanks Wim, yes there are in-wear photographs of these kinds of knives being worn, they do not look like the BDM/DJ knives though
I disagree with your first sentence. For common sense to come into play the reader needs a page showing how we got to where we are with these knives so that he can fully appraise the information and decide where he is on them. WAF wouldn't allow a thread containing the information laid out as we have it and can you seriously see anyone getting an article like that into the Military Advisor?
Garry, i wouldnt call it "evidence" as such, or proof, but definitely another nail in the coffin and something to think about.
Now, a vital point to consider is that many period catalogs (if that is what this is) also made re-prints years later, and included older stock, so finding badges that became extinct, or replaced, a few years later in a certain makers catalog, is commonplace.
Just to avoid misinterpretation, my post on "camping knives" was not referring to these multipurpose knives - knives like this were always available long before and after, the war, but i specifically mean the DJ/BDM knives, either with diamond on scabbard or not, that are refereed to as Hunting knives, or DJ knives, or as HOS prints, "Carried by the jungvolk before joining HJ" The HJ shaped knife, just sometimes a bit smaller... (smaller means for small people, i guess...doh!"
They are not mentioned pre 1945, or even post 1945 like the scouts knife with Fleur-de-Lys .. so where do these DJ/BDM knives come from?
edit: Garry, that pertains to the names mentioned, the folk who sell them, and their stories.. common sense, but of course i get what you mean..
? Are these small DJ/BDM knives still produced today? and the standard HJ knife? is that also produced today?
Now, a vital point to consider is that many period catalogs (if that is what this is) also made re-prints years later, and included older stock, so finding badges that became extinct, or replaced, a few years later in a certain makers catalog, is commonplace.
Just to avoid misinterpretation, my post on "camping knives" was not referring to these multipurpose knives - knives like this were always available long before and after, the war, but i specifically mean the DJ/BDM knives, either with diamond on scabbard or not, that are refereed to as Hunting knives, or DJ knives, or as HOS prints, "Carried by the jungvolk before joining HJ" The HJ shaped knife, just sometimes a bit smaller... (smaller means for small people, i guess...doh!"
They are not mentioned pre 1945, or even post 1945 like the scouts knife with Fleur-de-Lys .. so where do these DJ/BDM knives come from?
edit: Garry, that pertains to the names mentioned, the folk who sell them, and their stories.. common sense, but of course i get what you mean..
? Are these small DJ/BDM knives still produced today? and the standard HJ knife? is that also produced today?
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Okay, let's call it circumstantial evidence. Doesn't really matter. The point is that we are taking an analytical approach to this; an approach that these people have not taken - ever. If no one goes down this road then rubbish will prevail. I'm under no illusion that a wiki page is going to result in the militaria version of the storming of the Bastille and the deposition of the old guard - too many people have money tied up in these knives and other items like them for that to ever happen but perhaps we might prevent any new collectors buying them. Our forum is not fulfilling one of its aims (the clue is in the forum name 
) if we don't try.
PS: the term 'camping knife was taken because Weinand used it in his defence of the DJ knife and its origin.
) if we don't try.PS: the term 'camping knife was taken because Weinand used it in his defence of the DJ knife and its origin.
Garry, yes, ideas and theories and sugguestions should be tossed around and looked at from all angles. And repeated and examined and and... You hit the head on the nail (huh?) when you said that its never been done before, and also why, too much money tied up in those already sold, and dont forget that they are in-print, so hard to say "Sorry i made a mistake" But there is no mistake, because the same authors are still selling them.
By the way, i answered my own question, the small knives are still made today as well as the large knives.
By the way, i answered my own question, the small knives are still made today as well as the large knives.
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I can only speak as a novice collector, but I have many, many expensive and original BDM books and photos in my possession and am actively collecting more, I have not seen one, not one photo of a girl from the TR period, BDM or related, wearing or carrying a knife. I am somewhat disappointed, a I have bought one for no small fee.......
Joe B
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Who did you buy it from ? If the Dealer is an honorable person , he should refund all or some of your money .
That is because Girls were NEVER "tooled up" during the Third Reich, neither before Hitler came to power nor after. The only period that i could invisage a Girl carrying a knife, or weapon, in Germany, would be towards the very end days of the Reich, when it was pretty much every man for himself. But at no time were any Girls organizations given weapons.
@Joe, if it originates from Johnson or Wittman, (or other MAX members like Lakesidetraders, Collector-to-collector-militaria etc etc etc....) it will be an impossibility to return it. They have published them as legit, sell them as legit, and claim:
I would reckon that IF you have bought one from these guys, then you are stuck with it, and thats the price paid for believing the story and believing the reputation before researching. Because ANYBODY who truly did a small amount of research into this topic, would soon find out that what is printed as truth, is hocus-pokus! We have all been there, all been burnt, and 99,9% of the time have to suck it up and write the money off as "Lehrgeld"
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Has anybody seen the bagged "DJ" knife on TW site ..?
I just had a look at the bag & it still does not prove the DJ knife is legit!
The bag most likely belonged with an early period maker marked Artur shuttelhofer hj knife, definitely not that DJ knife!
The lengths some people go to is just beyond belief, pure & utter con to decieve imo.
Regards Mac 66.