Let's talk about the 'Deutsches Jungvolk knife' and the 'BDM knife'

This is the quote from BobI on the WAF thread:

It looks "extremely" legitimate to me! Since they are real I have defended these knives from the start. Since it was proposed we "out" those who brought these to market, I guess we can't collect anymore. Since, it would appear we have no proved these to be of 3rd Reich manufacture. Tom's bag looks as real as possibly can be!
Best Wishes,
Bob
PS- It always amazes me how so many respected people can vet purchase these and it is not considered credible.


Extremely legitimate? What a wonderfully, supportive and fact-laden statement...

The bit that amuses me most about his statement, is the "PS".

Respected people? Huh? To the mis-informed and lazy collector, yes, maybe. Because the lazy and gullible are easy targets and suckers, who will believe anything without question.

By respected people, I wonder if he means TTW, who marketed an HJ knife marked RZM M6/3? Yes, that's right, M6 for aluminium.

And perhaps TMJ, who marketed an HJ knife with a green diamond, (un-attributed as he stated), and sold it to some sucker for $650.

As of today's date, the super rare green diamond HJ knife is still on TMJ's website if anyone is interested.

And BobI, if these are the sort of examples that give these people credibility and respect, well, what can I say?

Regards

Russ
 
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Here's the green diamond from the highly respected TMJ.

Regards

Russ

Hitler Youth Pattern Knife w/Unattributed Grip Emblem & Double-TM. Two small storks above Robt. Klaas & RZM M7/37 1938 stamped TM. Nickel-plated hilt fittings show minor surface wear with a few areas of surface speckling/lifting on the pommel, spine and crossguard, but no major loss of plating. Black bakelite grip plates are perfect and are complete with Unattributed green/black/white enameled, diamond shaped emblem which shows minor surface wear to the enamel but, no cracks or chips. This Unattributed emblem is the exact size, shape and quality as the standard HJ diamond and is properly pinned, not glued into the grip plate, and "wiggles" to the touch. As of this writing, the emblem has not been identified. Polished blade without motto grades EX/EX+ showing surface wear/runner marks with light surface shadowing to obverse/reverse and three tiny nicks to the lower cutting edge, but no sharpening. Blade is complete with black leather blade buffer pad. Dent-free, steel scabbard retains approximately 85% of black factory enamel, showing surface crazing to the obverse/reverse shell and lifting to the lower obverse shell and tip. Scabbard is complete with black leather hanger/belt loop complete with grip strap in EX+ condition showing light wear with no rips or tears. EX+ (26161) $650. SOLD

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Hi Russel, there is something else twisted about Wittamann`s DJ con trick here, at the end he pushes the boat out all the way, and claims:
sack proves that not only the DJ knives without the swastikas are original but also that the DJ knife with or without swastika also served as the Hitler Youth knife after 1942
Two outrageous claims, that go against everything period documentation, History and media teach us, supported by ▬ and used as definite proof of ▬ an original HJ/DJ bag that has bugger all to do with the post war small knife? If Wittmann was an archaeologist, and pulled a trick like this, he would be laughed out of the profession, barred and disowned, but with Militaria,......oh wait?...crikey, Wittmann invented the MAX club...oh... that`s how you get around being shunned out of the profession for trying to reinvent history for financial gain...
 
Yes, it is laughable and quite sad really.

This broad statement you've highlighted above constitutes no proof at all.

He is attempting to legitimise both the plain and adorned knives with an old paper bag.

But the bag does not explain why we see plain or adorned knives - why is that? How does the bag make the connection between these variants?

Manufacturers in 1942 were under the control of the RZM. How can a non-marked knife be produced and sold, in so many variants?

Where could they be sold?

Where were they advertised?

What catalogues were they in?

Did you pay more for one with a diamond?

And could you choose between having a diamond on the scabbard, or one in the grip plate?

And what about the BDM - which one was for them?

Are we to believe that Alcoso is another manufacturer of these pieces?

Or did Alcoso only put un-marked knives in the paper bags, but felt the need to brand the bag which gets tossed out, rather than brand the knife itself?

It's all academic anyway, as it is all a load of rubbish, literally.

However, what the above statement does prove, is that TTW has no respect for the many people who put their faith in him.

Regards

Russ
 
Guys, far be it from me to comment as I've only been a member here for a short time but perhaps things shouldn't get too personal with these guys? Sure, I see some economy with the truth going on with sales descriptions and there is definitely some partisan activity going on on the WA thread but these guys won't change. Perhaps better to really hammer home with the evidence against these and other questionable items as opposed to going after the seller. I worry a little about this excellent (and above all independent) forum taking 'incoming' if you know what I mean. I've seen it happen before. Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn but it's important I think.
 
It's not economy with the truth Crack, it's blatant bullshit designed to legitimise an item that has absolutely no connection with the DJ, the HJ, or the BDM. And they all know it.

Regards

Russ
 
I see some economy with the truth going on
You remind me of that Monty Python film where John Cleese says to the Knight who has just chopped his arm off: "It`s only a scratch" :good:
"Incoming" is always welcome, as long as it`s factual, on topic, and not just random hate posts because of something posted by someone on another forum that bruised someones ego.
 
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These guys that are trying to legitimize this lore are people that others look to for advice and opinions on items, and often accept what they say as fact. If they are offering up opinion and making statements about these knives, then they open themselves up to scrutiny. That's just the way it is.
 
These guys that are trying to legitimize this lore are people that others look to for advice and opinions on items, and often accept what they say as fact.
If you have the gonads to declare yourself the be-all and end-all of something - which is exactly what Johnson has done by claiming:
[SIZE=-1]LTC Johnson's reputation and knowledge on the subject of edged weapons are such that his expertise and authentications are accepted by the collecting community as the final stamp of approval. (link)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
Then you must also be prepared to enter into discussion with the community, who you believe accept any old rubbish you parrot off as the FINAL STAMP - and explain the unexplainable.

But they dont, you will never find Johnson or Wittmann on a Forum, you will never find them helping the collector, or sharing any knowledge. The only time they will share their vast knowledge, is in the form of fabricated stories and insane claims like Wittmann has just made, with absolutely no possibility to challenge them, or enter into any form of debate whatsoever. They are totally non interactive within the community that they claim - sucks up their word as the FINAL STAMP OF APPROVAL.

For any "new theory" to be put forward, discussion must take place amongst those who know what they are talking about. A debate must center around what we know so far, include what history tells us, and any "new evidence" must be weighed up in a factual manner that either supports or dismisses any new theory, or new findings. The presenter of this new info MUST be the main player and debater! BUT THEY DONT, none of the names mentioned on this thread are open to any kind of two-way debate at all, they have never been, their form of factual debate is to do what Wittmann has once again done, invent a fable, incorporate a vet bring back tale, sprinkle the story with copious amounts of lies, half-wit interpretations of their account of history, and shut the door behind them to any form of debate.

This is not "presenting the community with new facts", this is not helpful to anyone except the seller of such items, which is always the fable inventor himself, and his few whacko supporter friends like we have seen on the WAF thread.
You cannot invent new information that goes against everything history tells us and then disengage from debate altogether (or never even enter into it), laying back on your self-invented claims that: Your word is the frigging final stamp. It is beyond laughable, and these people deserve to be named and shamed. The only alternative would be for them to enter into debate and explain their sordid accounts of history, which they cannot, because everything they do is purely for profit. They dont give a rats ass about the community who supposedly suck up their filth as the FINAL WORD.

[/SIZE]
 
Guys, far be it from me to comment as I've only been a member here for a short time but perhaps things shouldn't get too personal with these guys? Sure, I see some economy with the truth going on with sales descriptions and there is definitely some partisan activity going on on the WA thread but these guys won't change. Perhaps better to really hammer home with the evidence against these and other questionable items as opposed to going after the seller. I worry a little about this excellent (and above all independent) forum taking 'incoming' if you know what I mean. I've seen it happen before. Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn but it's important I think.

Absolutely no problem Crack. Thanks for your input. As the other guys have said, the main protagonists simply don't engage in dialogue. They seem happy to let others defend them "in absentia" and when you view all of the forums as a whole, there doesn't seem to be the will there to tackle the problem head on anyway. Yeah, people will happily attack Manion's for auctioning utter crap but when certain dealers make a 'mistake', nothing. All that is realistically left is to continue to examine and review what a dealer/seller says about a given fake or contentious item and hope that collectors are diligent and that they compare opinions before they buy.
 
Thanks. I agree with a lot of what you guys have said on this. You all seem to agree on the central issue though which is that certain members of the "higher echelon" seem not to feel that they are in any way accountable for what they say and that even when evidence is shown that conflicts with what they say, nothing changes. Perhaps the statement by Bob I#### is a telling one. He uses the word "respected" as if he is talking about a round table of all-knowing collector "knights" and seems to be intimating that if you are not "respected" then your opinion doesn't count. Am I making sense? I read the "Deutsche Jugend Messer" thread on WA with great interest a couple of days ao and although a win was claimed by Bob, I don't think any intelligent collector could come to any other conclusion than to say that the supporters of the DJ and Bdm knives came out of it looking a little silly.
 
one of the main reasons friends that you see very little contrary opinions about the knives and the charlatans who sell them on the other forums is ONE COMMENT GETS YOU IMMEDIATELY BANNED FROM THE FORUM and another dissenting voice is silenced :canada1right JO
 
Paul, the same thing that happened to "another" forum, has happened on German Daggers Forum. Only a very few "names" posting or commenting, and they are the ones that all say this crap is good. So naturally you dont stand a hope in hell of any constructive dialog there. This rubbish HAS TO BE REAL to them, because they all sell them, or own one.
 
GDC has a long history of silencing good people same as WAF the real honorable collectors have left or been silenced and now these forums are very quiet with little posting of any relevance anymore. :canada1
 
Thought we should add this one to the thread - from LTC TMJ (Ret) website.

Birthday dedication to a 6 year old on an "HJ" Knife?

But, we are told children of this age were issued "DJ" knives aren't we?

How can this be?

Regards

Russ

Description: Hitler Youth Knife w/Motto and Birthday Dedication (#28467)
Maker:ANTON WINGEN, JR. SOLINGEN and armored knight with sword TM; Condition:EX++; SOLD

$595.00

ANTON WINGEN JR., SOLINGEN and armored knight with sword TM. Nickel plated hilt fittings show almost no wear with no damage or loss to plating . Black grip plates are perfect and show almost no wear. Plated blade with “BLUT UND EHRE” motto grades EX++ showing light surface wear/runner marks and very light speckling but, no nicks or damage. Reverse balde features professionally rendered etch “ZUM 6. GEBURTSTAG ALLES GUTE”: For your 6th Birthday, wishing you the best. Dedication is surrounded by seven etched tree branches (pine). Dent-free steel scabbard retains approximately 97% of the black enamel showing very minor wear. Scabbard features black leather diagonal belt loop showing only light age with no cuts to leather. EX++ (28467) SOLD





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Here are a few bigger images, as the images on his site are wincy.
A good close-up of the rivets would be enough to make you laugh at this 6 year olds Blut & Ehre knife. I see some poor sod has already been fleeced for almost 600 dollah!

The REAL joke though, is this part: Reverse balde features professionally rendered etch
What, pray tell, is a professionally rendered Etch? Any fool can acid etch whatever they want, on whatever they want. There is a difference between a Tom Johnson garage-etching, and a TR makers etching? Really?

 

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There's no diamond either. Bit of an oversight huh?

A Hitler Youth knife without a diamond?

Unless it's on the reverse grip plate...

What a frankenstein this one has turned in to!

Regards

Russ
 
The ultra-bent finger-protector is surely an indication that it was for a young guy, with supple fingers, fingers that surely could not risk being hurt... possibly a NAPOLA-förderling.. possibly the son of a wealthy TR personality...
Could a 6 year old even carry such a knife? nothing to do with regulations now, but could he "physically" pick it up? LOL.....

Johnson should have rolled with a post war Bärentöter knife, that way there would have been place for a HJ (or DJ, or KKK or NASA or DEA...) badge, and it is available in all sizes..

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Yes, one of those, and a "Change-the-diamond-yourself-D.I.Y-kit" from eBay .. and you would be rolling in the dollahs...

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Wait a Minuit. There have been thousands of posts on this site saying that there is no such thing as a DJ knife! Now we see a period add? What the hell is going on.
 
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