Let's talk about the 'Deutsches Jungvolk knife' and the 'BDM knife'

Hello,
I'm very sorry for any confusion (on my part apparently)! Anyway, I'm very new at these Forums. I certainly meant no disrespect to anyone. I happened to be on the other Forum prior to reading the responses here, and decided to do an additional post there with the thought of seeking additional information. I'm a little concerned about this knife. I purchased it awhile back from one of the editors of Bender Publishing who claims it to be Third Reich era. That in itself carries some weight, so I wanted multiple views to feel satisfied about it's origins. I find this Forum to be equally substantial and positive in information gathering.I appreciate everyone's help and comments equally. Please accept my apology for anything I may have done to upset all of you proficient collector's. My simple goal is to learn as much possible from all sources available.
Brad
 
Hello Friends,

Another piece of interesting information it that T. Wittmann has a couple of DJ Knives for sale as original Third Reich era. Has anyone corresponded with him recently regarding his knowledge on these DJ/BDM knives?
 
BRAD he is the main problem with these and most likely the main holder of these. He has claimed for years to have proof of their existence but never seems to be able to come up with it meanwhile he sells more to his followers sort of like the rats following the PIED PIPER :canada1
 
i agree with you,
even the most informed sources are not without fault! I try to gather as much information as I can on any subject before I come to any conclusion. This DJ knife for example, I have had it for awhile and finally got around to asking questions about it. I truly thought it was a period knife based on its source. I'm happy to learn about it from reliable sources such as yourself. Even though it apparently is a reproduction/fake/etc., my thirst for knowledge makes it interesting to learn about. It's not the first militaria item I own that I've come to discover as a fake. Fortunately, I don't have a huge fortune invested in it. i wish these Forums existed years ago. It's so nice that they are available now, and I realize now that they share information which makes the subject matter more comprehensive. I thank you and everyone else for your time and sincere information and I respect all of you for your knowledge and help!
 
Brad, why not try asking Wittman himself, instead of cutting corners. I did just this a few months ago with the fantasy RPT HJ knives, (That he and his twin sell all the time) and the reply i got from Wittmann, when i asked for his "Period evidence" of their existence - was just shocking! It went like this:

Tom Johnson, has somewhere, a photo of a box of these kinves, that was taken at a German show.

Yep, conclusive period evidence right there.:lol:
Sorry Brad, whoever sold you this supposed DJ knife ripped you off. The DJ were never "tooled up" and never had special knives. The only knife that there was for youngsters, was the HJ fahrtenmesser, and this is documented well, throughout the Third Reich period.

I do realise that these will be discussed forever, BUT NOT BY US, not by the normal collector as we know these are fantasy blades, but the thing is, Wittman, Johnson and many other "leading big-wigs" have sold these, and continue to sell these, for well over ONE THOUSAND USD a pop! So you see, for those who have invested (WASTED) their money on these, they NEED to be real, there NEEDS to be speculation, there needs to be idiotic email replies like "I have a photo of a box of these taken at a show in Germany - so that makes them real" These big wiggers have even included them in their books, so there is no turning back, there will be no "admission of guilt". They need to be real for those who fell for the "big wig" trap.
 
Hello Friends,

Another piece of interesting information it that T. Wittmann has a couple of DJ Knives for sale as original Third Reich era. Has anyone corresponded with him recently regarding his knowledge on these DJ/BDM knives?

Hi Brad,

Mr Wittmann, as Jo mentioned, doesn't have any proof that these knives are what he has said about them in the past where he made a couple of glaring, elementary errors for example THIS where he claims that the "DJ" knife must be real because he put a paper bag next to one and took a photo (the paper bag is for the standard HJ knife). There is also an example where Mr Wittmann reinvents history and places a standard HJ knife into the 1920s.

As far as the DJ knife is concerned he seems to have changed his mind very recently:

"It is my opinion that a DJ knife did not actually exist; after 1942 these knives were produced for use by the entirety of the HJ. Since the war was raging at the time, this style was a low-cost alternative to the standard HJ Knife. One of these days I will produce a period photo “DJ Knife” in-wear by a HJ member; I have this image somewhere, but I've misplaced picture. I will eventually find it!"

This snippet was copied from his sales page today but the complete sales pitch includes the wonderfully contradictory statements:

"This DJ knife is a typical, original example" Yay!

"It is my opinion that a DJ knife did not exist" Booh!!


The "late-war, low-cost alternative to the HJ knife" thing isn't his opinion by the way. It's the opinion of R Weinand, another US militaria dealer who proposed (in 2013) that these knives were produced late-war for issue to HJ and DJ. However, there is no proof for any of this. It all seems to be a further clutch at straws but nevertheless, it is good to see that the notion of the "DJ knife" is losing support, even among dealers who have supported it in the past. As far as Wittmann's photo is concerned I'll be honest: I don't think for a second that there is a photo.
 
More good information! Thank you. I'm basically a novice collector with a few HJ/BDM items, but mostly items involving other branches of the Third Reich. I decided to bring up Wittmann because he is such a leader in the blade world, and as a novice like me, we need to know that there can be flaws and understand why. Everything in this posting is new information for me. I don't pretend to know anything about these knives other than what is posted in these Forums. Thanks again!
 
I would demand Wittmann to refund your money ...in fact I`d love to see a hundred collectors who have bought these fake knives since 1980 demand there money back all at the same time . The look on Wittman's face would be priceless.
 
Laughable latest offering from the guy that just keeps coming up with new and even more bizarre descriptors for the so called DJ Knife. He now apparently states there was no specific "DJ" knife after these have been called out on the carpet and exposed for what they are. Looks like he's reaching in a new direction. Let's see if the motel room guru follows suit. Here's the latest bit fairy tale from his site when describing a knife that he has droned on and on about in the past describing it as "DJ" and "B.D.M.". This guy is unreal. He even uses the word "Probably" in the sales pitch which confirms that he has no factual information regarding this knife ever being a legitimate issued item and that it is his own speculation.

"This “DJ” Knife is the style that does not have the swastika applied to the scabbard. This probably was is a example of “last ditch” production, an effort by the NSDAP to provided knives to the HJ, which continued to exist to the bitter end of the war. As we now know, the DJ Knife was never a specific piece slated for the DL alone. The so-called “DJ” version we see is simply a cheaper, late issued variant of the standard knife. In other words, the HJ and DJ knives were totally interchangeable with the organizations. This example has all aluminum hilt mounts, and they are pristine throughout. The pommel has the silhouette of an eagle's head, and a quillon which rises upward to a teardrop. The grip plates are of black Bakelite or celluloid, having a checkered finish. These plates are retained by aluminum rivets, having dressed heads on the obverse.
The scabbard is straight throughout, and has pristine, full Mint original black paint. The leather belt loop is in place and complete with a retainer loop and working snap. This leather in in Near Mint condition.
The single-edged, slab blade is without a ricasso, and is is still bright and Mint throughout. It retains 100% of the original cross-grain, with a needle-like tip at the end. The original brown felt blade buffer in in place , keeping this blade in a Mint state.
If you are collecting HJ daggers, you certainly need this version of the knife. This is an exceptional example and would fit perfectly into an advanced collection.
Mint. $795.00"


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The leather belt loop is in place and complete with a retainer loop and working snap
Tip I: It would look more convincing with a pressed paper or plastic strap :) C`mon, at least stick to one part of a story that you invent, and dont mix & marry to suit.
Tip II. Add a printed HJ armband, turn it into a very late war "attic find hoard" " .
Tip II not really necessary as those who spunked out cash with these inventors of history have already been whore-ed.
Someone should tell him about Occam`s razor principle.
 
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the bigger they are the harder they fall, hope he is not looking down :canada1
Paul, they ARE looking down, all of them. Thing is though, they`ll change their story again before they fall, and convince you that DOWN is actually UP, so they wont fall, but rise even more!!

And anyway Paul, show some respect. You are talking about dealers who ALWAYS find the impossible, and then spend ages inventing a story to sell it. A "creative" step above the rest IMHO.
Most others are lazy, all you`ll get is a: "This is a truly rare item..." with these guys - man.... DJs married with HJ bags... HJs with green diamonds... and lets not forget the HJ Axe-combo......
If it`s incredibly rare, so rare that it never existed -- they`ll find it, and that perseverance deserves respect.
 
I tell you a story. When I was a little schollboy in the late 50s, I was climbing up a big tree besides a small river. I weared my fathers HJ knife. Unfortunally the knife slipped out the scabbard and vanished in the water. No chance to recover. As far as I remember, to the knife was not applied a swastika, more a "white flower symbol". But I`m unsure, its long time ago. There was no leather belt to safe the knife from slipping out. Thats life.
 
One thing to ponder. There may be a possibility that some who have bought these "Late D.J.", super early "pre 1930 introduced" or whatever other creative description that is en vogue for the day for these knives have questioned them to the seller. I note that there is currently an item described as "Late D.J." on his site with a very wordy description and much speculation but no mention of any regulation, directive, source for this information, etc.. The item number includes a "C" character 36443C, which I understand means this is a consignment item. It's odd to me that such a specialist in edged weapons would list this as a consignment item and not leap that the chance to purchase such a rare "last ditch" item. Things that make you go hmmm.
 
As we now know, the DJ Knife was never a specific piece slated for the DL alone. The so-called “DJ” version we see is simply a cheaper, late issued variant of the standard knife. In other words, the HJ and DJ knives were totally interchangeable with the organizations
The guy is full of ××××
 
The swindle continues:

Oh man. Folks on WAF are "shocked" that the swindler has traveled to England to testify in court after writing a COA (toilet paper) for a fake blade and he's been compensated $5000 USD for his expenses. Nothing shocking here, this guys been peddling misinformation and junk for years now under the guise of his reputation and experience. I laugh at Gottlieb being a favorite whipping boy of that forum when this guy's drivel is taken as gospel. Here's the WAF thread for a few laughs.

Fake dagger authenticated by Wittmann. - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
 
Here is another "BDM" knife. Bargain priced at $1450 USD!!!!!!!! Get it quickly before the colonel or the penguin jump on for their sites. Watch closely, after this sells the price of their examples will go up IMO.

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Who`s side do you take here? Buy expensive poo, get a seller of expensive poo to sell you a piece of paper for $500.- stating that he thinks your poo is not poo, but rather a genuine item. Then after you do your homework you find out that your poo is indeed poo, and decide to sue the seller who sold you the poo, even though an independent poo seller has assured you that it is not poo. To make matters worse, you lose the case because it is not even heard in court and have to fund a bill for the poo-paper writing expert - indeed a poo seller himself -to travel from the US to the UK and back, hotel and foot massage to boot. Who has the most poo on their hands here?
The sue-er, who has dropped a 5-6 figure amount on this, the poo-paper seller and miles-n-more member, or the original seller - & friend of poo-paper seller?
something smells like poo any way you look at it...
 
Hmm, from the description provided by ol Tom, the guy that got taken is pretty pissed and sounds as if he has the means to do something about it, possibly up close and personal. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm sure others are watching, waiting, worrying, about the possibility of something similar. Things that make you go hmm.
 
About 8 years ago it was Gottlieb who almost got stomped in the mens room, one day it will happen to one of them, dropping 5-6 figures.. heavy....
 
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