View Poll Results: Do you think that these knives were issued to and used by the DJ and BDM?

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  • Yes

    3 9.38%
  • No

    29 90.63%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #1

    Let's talk about the 'Deutsches Jungvolk knife' and the 'BDM knife'

    This is a thread dedicated to getting to the bottom of the various stories about the so-called 'DJ' and 'BDM' knives.

    (This thread was superceded in Nov 2012 by expanded
    HJ-Wiki pages on the:

    DJ knife
    BDM knife

    (access for Full Members Gold)

    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Updated post #1. Looking for additions from you now guys. Have you seen a useful post on another forum? Anything else which needs to go into post 1?

    Please post what you find and I'll update accordingly.

  3. #3

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    posted at WAF about the DJ dagger/knife:
    I am no "dagger lover" and much is told since the sixties and even earlier, which never was stated. Neither with an actual document nor a photograph of use. It is my personal opinion that stories about vets in many occasions are dealer's inventions for a better selling of their stuff! To get more money out of the item!

    In the booklet "Aufbau und Abzeichen der Hitler-Jugend", dated April 1940 (and mainly spread since 1941) page 90 says: HJ-Fahrtenmesser. The further text mentions:
    Members from the HJ and DJ do wear the HJ-Fahrtenmesser, the allowance for wearing is when the Pfimpfenprobe was done. In no HJ regulation whatsoever a dagger for the DJ is being mentioned and of course not at all a knife or dagger for girls. The last would be against nature and rules to "arm females"!

    There is no evidence even that such daggers were planned in early war. Such items were not mentioned in the "Amtliches Nachrichtenblatt" nor the "Reichsbefehl" anyway. There was no mention in the "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei" about a new entry (Neuzugang) for a DJ-dagger or knife. Not even until the end of 1942. The only thing which changed were the leather parts. They changed into a substitute material known as Supronband UG. Don't you think they would have mentioned it in this periodical? It is possibility they "existed" on a drawing table, but then it would have been decided as "auf Kriegsdauer zurückgestellt" (to be waited when the war was over). This is known for other items! Who knows some concern has produced them to get them introduced and accepted by the Reichsjugendführung. But if then aluminum or light weight metals were used is even more questionable! end my post: until any of the collectors is able to show us such evidence it is my and other HJ interested persons opinion the stories about these knives are bogus, inventions from those that suck money from the collectors (not having enough knowledge). Who started it: the disreputable major James (Jim). P. Atwood? Do we really know what he put one over on a person?
    Last edited by wilhelm saris; 19th July 2012 at 07:59 PM.

  4. #4
    Many thanks Wim. Is this one of your own posts from WAF?

  5. #5
    The problem with Jim Atwood, is pretty much the same as we have today with a few of the big Dealers, especially in the USA, they are known forgers, and corrupt as can be, yet at the same time write books, purporting to educate, and share their vast knowledge. So many collectors are stuck between two worlds when it comes to certain names, between Fantasy and "slightly" adapted History.. in the name of filling certain pockets you understand. We know that at no point in the Third Reich history, are separate DH knives mentioned or introduced, in no Mtbl. or otherwise, all there is, are Vet bring back stories, and where do these stories usually first start? with either the corrupt forgers themselves, or through their friends.... it still happens today, and anyone who visits the European shows will know, the same faces sitting behind the same tables, selling the same POS, that everyone in the Room knows is fake, yet nobody would take the step to flip over that guys table... (except me)

    I had an interesting conversation with Fredrick Stephens about these knives in October last year, and his response somewhat mirrors Wims above. Remember though, that a good majority of collectors at WAF and the GDC forum will own one of these, or previously commented on them in a good light, so dont expect any miracles there.

  6. #6

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    yes Garry. I copied what I said there (for the interest of this forum of course).
    I expect some unfounded answer!
    Last edited by wilhelm saris; 19th July 2012 at 10:34 PM.

  7. #7
    I don't care about other forums Jo. I pitched in purely to drop links back to good discussions on our forum and to join Russ and Fred in letting the dealers on that thread know that we are still out there - watching. I felt a bit sorry for the inimicus guy because he's the one now stuck in a dilemma. I still wonder whether he got his knife from Weinand or another dealer with a guarantee. Would explain some of the opinions expressed in that thread in my opinion.

    I don't want to get into it here but I noticed a post from someone on WAF the other day wondering why the Atwood birdshead dagger is still listed on CG's site. CG's reply? 'Some believe it's real, some don't'. And this after the absolute pounding it got from you and many others. Staggering...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by wilhelm saris View Post
    yes Garry. I copied what I said there (for the interest of this forum of course).
    I expect some unfounded answer!
    Thanks Wim. As you say, no evidence whatsoever to support the claims of the dealers; certainly for the so-called 'DJ' knife. The problem in my opinion are these small unmarked knives; the ones the dealers sell as 'BDM' knives. Who owned the rights to the design of a badge or insignia or a knife during the
    ? Were patents/
    suspended during the
    or were they just reorganised under the

    What I'm getting at is this: the small knife is an almost exact copy of the large HJ knife yet it doesn't have any
    marks. This means that whoever made it was copying an
    licensed product. Would that have been allowed during the
    ? If not then this would be another nail in the coffin for these small knives I would have thought? It would also imply the impossibility of Mr Weinand's claim that these are pre-1945 production items.

  9. #9

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    I think it was not allowed to produce an item which was a look-a-like of an official item, surely
    when it was party related.
    I do not know this for knifes or whatever, but for black caps in the style as for the Jungvolk
    and winter-cap!

  10. #10
    Yep. That's what I'm thinking too :) I think that the 'DJ' knives can be safely discounted as having been made in that configuration prior to 8.5.1945 so we are just left with finding more on the so-called 'BDM' knife which is of course the base product for both types of knife and of course for the discredited
    and Olympic knives. Any of the 'DJ' and ''BDM' knives with
    marks must also be discounted.

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