Let's talk about the 'Deutsches Jungvolk knife' and the 'BDM knife'

As a newbie and not having read the whole of this thread,I like to keep an open mind and was lucky enough to see a badge that had been removed from the scabbard revealing an rzm mark this seems unusual .
gov

Is having an original HJ insignia fixed on the scabbard proof enough to clarify the knife as period made????
I think not. It wouldn't be the first time that a so-called dealer of authentic stuff starts to assemble a so-called period item, with a combination of genuine parts and a bogus item.
That original HJ insignia is for about $60 US available, but if put on a scabbard of these knives the knife itself becomes "RARE" and sells over $750 US dollar. Hmmm not a bad investment, wouldn't you think.
I for one, unless someone can show me a period picture I'm not convinced these items were made in that time.
The fact only that some people call them BDM, others DJ knives is in my eyes allready suspicious.
Shouldn't we have by this time allready found some written documentation of production of these knives,.....Nope. Nothing to be found at this time.
The same thing is going on for those two other variations ; the olympic and the Reichsparteitag version, another bogus item IMO.

But you decide on what to spend your money ofcourse.

Mike
:belgium
 
The RZM mark is just another attempt to try and legitimise these pieces as geniune.

There are no RZM marks on the HJ/DJ Fahrtenmesser scabbards, so why 'hide' one on one of these bogus knives, and have the diamond 'fall off' to reveal it?

Money, my friend, money...

Regards

Russ
 
As a newbie, you should also take the time to read everything you can, including this thread, or start collecting someone else.

Regards

Russ
 
Russ thanks for the advice very sound ,which is why I have every book known on the subject inc the latest hj/npea offering by ralf siegert. Its also a bit late for me to start collecting something else as I do have quite a large collection of daggers knives etc . When I stated newbie that was referring to this site not the collecting field lol.I can see already this site is similar to others wheras if there isn't a photo of it or its written somewhere then it dosnt exist.I bet a discussion on the bible would be quite contentious.I like to look at items for what they are and do find it strange to think there is an army of fakers out there .As an engineer of 35 years I understand how hard it is to manufacture these fantastic dress items.so I will continue to keep an open mind
dippy
 
Russ thanks for the advice very sound ,which is why I have every book known on the subject inc the latest hj/npea offering by ralf siegert. Its also a bit late for me to start collecting something else as I do have quite a large collection of daggers knives etc . When I stated newbie that was referring to this site not the collecting field lol.I can see already this site is similar to others wheras if there isn't a photo of it or its written somewhere then it dosnt exist.I bet a discussion on the bible would be quite contentious.I like to look at items for what they are and do find it strange to think there is an army of fakers out there .As an engineer of 35 years I understand how hard it is to manufacture these fantastic dress items.so I will continue to keep an open mind
dippy

Hi, always very strange when a question is asked and the person says that they did not read the thread.. However, I do not understand what is wrong with doubt when an item is unknown in the literature from the period. You see the hidden RZM stamp as more relevant but the whole point of marking items was that the RZM mark had to be visible.Why would a scabbard (that was not normally stamped like Russ said) be suddenly stamped with an incomplete RZM mark underneath a badge? Why are they not ALL stamped like that? Why no photos? Why no mention of these knives in any period literature? Nothing is known from the period but some dealers have the answers? Not for me this scenario. A wish to belive that everything is real is dangerous. I do not know if you belive these knifes to be real but I think you must as an engineer review all of the evidence. If you have done that I can not see that any conclusion can be reached that gives these DJ/BDM knives any authenticity. Unless you have new information of course and I would welcome to see it.
 
Govman is a dealer who is selling a BDV knife ?

World Waugh Militaria


Mac 66.
 
Just to make few points firstly I am a collector not a dealer I sell items I have upgraded or have more than one of. I do have two of these ,I am in a fortunate position where I choose to collect both text book items and items where the jury is out ,as an engineer I like to have these items so as to compare both physically and via photos. I have chosen to do this and I see no harm in giving other people the chance to make that decision , after all should someone find a period photo or written confirmation then it would seem like a good investment ,anyone who knows me more than realises I do not need the revenue from this,after all a few years back it was stated there was no such thing as a full stag rad mans. I have a large collection of photos and recently found a photo of a bdm girl wearing a hj knife not a common photo.So there is always a chance . I also intend when I retire to write some books with photos of post war / fakes / reproductions and contentious pieces to help the collector. This seems a site where members are very strong in there opinions ,I wonder if they would be pleased to find new confirmed areas in their collecting field or not.I also find myself being barrated for my opinions and collection if I can work out how to add photos of some of my items i will. I am sure you will find my collection appealing and interesting.I would be interested to find out who are the main collector / authorities in this field of the hobby to gain there opinions rather than a collector with one or two hjs and a bag full of views.
govman
 
Govman,


Your sales description reads:

German WW2 BDV Knife
A great German WW2 BDV Knife that was worn by the under 10's of the Hitler youth.
The scabbard is in good condition with no dents or damage and a good amount of black paint is still remaining.
The leather strap and button are still intact and blade on the knife has been slightly sharpened and in good condition also with the felt washer still remaining.
This BDV knifes aluminium hilt rivets and handle are in great condition and there are no chips or cracks to the Bakelite grip.
This item is rare to find and will be an excellent addition to any collection.
Thank you for your interest.

Code: 50043Price: 240.00 GBP


Why is this silly little knife RARE ?, Any strong evidence on this Fact ?
 
My questions are .why if there is conclusive evidence either way your forum is having a discussion on the knives.Why is this silly little knife rare .answer because there are not many of them would be my obvious answer.why all throughout this thread are they refered to as bdv bdm and dj jungvolk (took advice and read through)how pray then should I describe this knife other than the way you are all describing it ,also I have always known these having this description.i do not have any strong evidence they are as described as you do not have any strong evidence they are not,so for the mean time I will go on the most common description given. I will still continue to enjoy the one within my collection until maybe someone does find a photo or written confirmation which would be great ,after all I think my chances of that are much more favourable than yours of finding the guy that knocked them up in his shed and distributed them worldwide with the possibility of a major manufacturer being involved and inventing the bdv story.

COGITO ERGO SUM A FOUNDATION FOR ALL KNOWLEDGE.
OR
INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY
lol govman
 
So as to prove my conviction to the discussion I have asked my daughter who runs my website to remove the knife and have no qualms in putting it with the other one I own.Your statement however they will NEVER appear is a bit sweeping maybe you know something we don't to be so assured . You haven't got a she'd have you ? . Also your inference I am trying to take peoples hard earned cash is a little dramatic and has tones of north of the border.I will remain level headed and open minded which is a trait that has stood me in good stead over the years.Rather than firing off the hip.will post a photo soon.
govman
 
bdm hj photo

Here is an extract from the prelude to this rather one sided dealer witch hunt,even though the majority of us have made purchases from dealers in the past and enjoy them turning up goodies for us we seem to forget they do have to earn a profit to survive........ There is no mention of official knives for girls of course and you have to ask yourself whether it is logical that the BDM would be the only female organisation in the NSDAP to be granted the right to wear knives? Of course they weren't. It is a ludicrous notion
I don't know whether or not the girls are laughing at us or mr hitler as they are blatently breaking the rules.Mind you thinking about it all the women I have met do seem to like a little opinion every now and then
gov


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Interesting photo. The knife in wear appears to be a standard H.J. knife with emblem in the grip plate IMO, but tough to say from the photo shown as it is not really clear. Thanks for showing the photo.
 
Hi yes that is correct ,behind the knife is her zip ,shame I thought at first it was I dj knife (whoops I said it again)
govman
 
Definitely a standard HJ knife, insignia in the gripplates and taking the size in account.
No so-called DJ or BDM knife to be seen on this picture.
Thx for sharing this pic, this is for me the first I see where a girl is wearing one.
Mike
:belgium
 
Sorry I did not make myself clear there is not a bdm ,dj knife in the photo.My point is that rare views items like this photo will still be found/ unearthed so lets keep an open mind until I find a photo of one.hehehee
govman
 
Well, I wish you good luck with finding that one special picture with a BDM knife.
My guess is.... you will not find it.
But be my guest and continu searching,by all means. That' my open mind speaking.

Wouldn't we have by now found at least some publication, documentation, or written orders adressed to manufacturers to produce such a knife????
And then something else wich bothers me, should such a knife have existed it would have been produced IMO in the early (before 1938) days.
Because these knives don't have RZM markings on the blade, and no ricasso.
(in comparison with the normal HJ knife)
And since all youth are keen on having some kind of a uniform, WITH a knife beiing part of it, wouldn't we have by now allready encountered pictures of young girls/boys (under the age of 14) with there precious knife, eager and proud to show there uniform, especially the wear of a knife before a camera????
Mike
:belgium
 
Welcome to the forum Govman. I fear that you have misunderstood the thrust of this thread. It's not a witch hunt. What we have done is to lay out the facts - the verifiable facts and then we have examined the argument for the existence of an officially procured and issued knife for the DJ and the BDM. I and others on the forum have access to a great deal of period books, orders, regulations and catalogues and we are unable to find any mention of any knife other than the standard item. The dealers who are selling these "DJ" and "BDM" knives have no proof that what they are saying is true and none has ever been shown. I would submit that the burden of proof is very much with those who give these knives a chance. You aren't being berated for your views in my opinion. This debate seems to drag on and on with one side presenting facts and the other engaged in an exercise of optimism that one day something will turn up showing that these knives are what the dealers say they are. As to your photo, this isn't of course proof of anything (as you said yourself) other than what we see; a girl wearing a standard HJ/DJ knife. Here's another:

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No one would believe for a second that the above photograph is proof that there was a special arm of the BDM that wore HJ uniforms due to a late-war shortage of blouses and skirts.

In my opinion there is no debate on the "DJ" and "BDM" knife until it can be shown that what you, for example, say in your sales pitch is a reflection of historical truth. I understand the points you have made today of course and I commend you for removing the knife from your page.
 

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Hi thanks for your comments and a very interesting photo.whatever next eh wink wink
govman
 
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