M7/36 E&F Hörster HJ knife with solid red enamel diamond insignia

I've just put up a Wiki on the Fahrtenmesser. This info on the opaque diamonds would be a very useful addition if someone would like to add it
 
Scott, i would leave the WAF thread alone, the people commenting on it, clearly have no idea what they are on about. For example, this Victorman believes that all opaque HJ diamonds are fake, yet he believes that the fantasy HJ Honor knives, with opaque enamel on the bloody pommel, are real? and rare? lol.... sorry but thats too much, maybe they forget what they think is real and why? LOL....

Hi Jo,

Yes your right i,ll leave that WAF thread for now as i,ve said all i can & i,m very thankful to you for all your help & info on this subject,

Until your new book comes out!!! :)

Cheers Mac 66.
 
Scott, maybe you could throw this one at the Gurus who think opaque red is post war. Two rare early pre-NSF badges, (Frauenorden and Mädchenschaft) from the late 20`s or very early 1930-1931 at best. One has translucent red, the other opaque red....
and even with the regular NSF badges, the post October 1931 badges, there is a mixture of both translucent and opaque red, thats just a fact.

Maybe they would also say one is a fake? lol..... we have a saying that goes: Was der Bauer nicht kennt, frisst er nicht...

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Scott, maybe you could throw this one at the Gurus who think opaque red is post war. Two rare early pre-NSF badges, (Frauenorden and Mädchenschaft) from the late 20`s or very early 1930-1931 at best. One has translucent red, the other opaque red....
and even with the regular NSF badges, the post October 1931 badges, there is a mixture of both translucent and opaque red, thats just a fact.

Maybe they would also say one is a fake? lol..... we have a saying that goes: Was der Bauer nicht kennt, frisst er nicht...

Thanks Jo,

i,ll keep a note of this for further evidence on opaque enamel for the Non Believers!!

Regards Mac 66
 
I'm adding a section on these diamonds to our HJ knife wiki page and I need a Herman quote or two. Can someone copy and paste a couple here showing his reasons for not liking them please?
 
I'm adding a section on these diamonds to our HJ knife wiki page and I need a Herman quote or two. Can someone copy and paste a couple here showing his reasons for not liking them please?

Quotes from WAF:


Herman on WAF said:
I don't collect those pins, but there are some that look very old, so basically, there are 2 possibilities:

- very late originals
- very early copies

Most of the senior badge & pin collectors in Europe seem to avoid them, which is a bad sign...

But unlike HJ-knifes, production of these pins did not stop in 1942!

So it is a very different story...


Maybe at the end of the war 1944-45, the HJ pin factory was bombed and the Germans could not make the dots in the HJ badge anymore... Don't see any reason why they would have changed the design: there is not any strategic material reduction involved... unless it can be prooved that these full reds are not made of copper...

Best regards,

Herman



Herman from WAF said:
Hello Heran,

On HJ daggers: these is not any historical proof whatsoever that these full reds are period.

Badges: all senior collectors I know are avoiding them.

But someone here will certainly tell you that "proof is coming"... in a year or so...

Best regards,

Herman

Herman on WAF said:
Mac,

What you are trying to tell the collector community is the following:

At the Hörster factory, now and then a HJ knife assembler said to himself: "This HJ-knife is gonna have a hard time during its lifetime, so I will put in a full red diamond on this one !"

This way, the assembler was predicting that the knife was going to end up as a beater or low end knife for collecting purposes...

Now, the same was happening at many other Solingen blade factories: now end then a full red diamond was mounted, predicting that this particular knife would be abused or damaged...

And this way of producing started as soon as 1936, you seem to believe?

This is just rediculous, Mac!


Or maybe, for you, it does not matter if the diamond is original to the HJ-knife?

If there is a chance that the diamond is a replacement -coming from a period badge- do you consider the HJ-knife to be 100% authentic?

You seem to accept that -due to the shortage of original knife diamonds- badges are used to upgrade crappy knifes?

In that case we have a completely different story!

And I propose to stop this discussion immediately.

Best regards,

Herman



Herman on WAF said:
I do a lot of research on HJ's, Mac, I keep statistics, from every show I attend to, for many, many years now...

That is how I manage to draw conclusions on features that are typical for certain producers. For instance, the late Hörsters, like shown here, they have unique rivets with very small heads, unlike any other maker! Yours has them to! Many collectors still find them suspicious... but they are 100% OK. Unlike the diamond on your Hörster... it is really not original to the knife... sorry to bring that bad news.

About the 50%:
You would be surprised how many HJ knifes -even minty ones- are surfacing with a missing or damaged diamond... I count them on every show!

On top of that, I add the ones which have an replacement diamond -I do x-ray the knifes ! Lots of original (dagger diamond) replacements! But also many diamonds which were originaly HJ-pins are mounted into quality HJ-knifes!

Now even if the % of lost, original diamonds was much less than the over 50% I observed so far, than there would still be not enough original diamonds (from daggers!) to repair the low end HJ-knifes.
That is why fakes and ex-badges (possibly also full reds...) are used on the crappy HJ's.

Now, is that so difficult to follow and understand?


That was all for today, from my side anyway...

Best regards,

Herman

Herman on WAF said:
Another try, but wrong again, Mac!

Talk to someone who does emaille work (which are the HJ diamonds): a dotted diamond is a more advanced technique and is therefore more expensive to produce.

The early fakers could not spend much money on their copies, because original HJ's itself were not too expensive in the early years of collecting.

Still today, the cheapest copies have a full red diamond because it costs less to produce those.

I had explained this already -maybe not on this forum?-

Some people seem to have a very short memory when it comes to this topic: they keep on repeating the same arguments over and over again, presenting them as being new... and hoping noone will react this time... it is never ending story...

Hijacking other topics with "the full red story" is another common practice to get attention for this lost case...

The only objective appears to be: to convince new collectors, so these will buy a bad piece and probably leave the hobby immediately after they found out what they really bought!

Please, for the future of this great hobby: STOP THESE PRACTICES NOW!

Best regards,

Herman
 
I have a real clean unmarked solid red diamond HJ comming. I have stayed away because I have very little tolerance for the couple members who dominate the forum. Like my lone gone father often said "If you dont have something good to say, dont say anything at all" Merry Christmas to all.
 
I have a real clean unmarked solid red diamond HJ comming. I have stayed away because I have very little tolerance for the couple members who dominate the forum. Like my lone gone father often said "If you dont have something good to say, dont say anything at all" Merry Christmas to all.
I have to disagree with the red part, and thats whats contributed to the mess today, so many people just sitting on the fence not prepared to say something "negative" above a web-dealer for fear of reprisal, for fear of loosing out on the next Deal, even though all & sundry know the items bogus, they would rather only speak when they have nice things to say...and shut up when they see others being fleeced.
Both good and bad are possible, together, in the same post. Although the bad part here, is actually the good part :sad: , because it`s warning other, interested, possibly new collectors, about fantasy items being sold!

Great news that you are not one of the go-alongs who seem to think that opaque red diamonds are all post war. Will you be listing it above, or below, the DJ knife you have for sale?

Merry Xmas to you & yours as well.
 
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I would also like to add that facts dominate this forum Mr Harris, not people.
 
Here is a genuine opaque red enamel hj daimond insignia with the proper tangs on the back for fitment into the hj knife griplate, note the black peppery effect through the enamel.

M1/13 L. Christian Lauer, Nürmberg


Regards Mac 66.

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The black "peppery" effect was caused when the diamond was polished down after enameling, BUT was not re-fired to smooth out the enamel, of "flash-melt" the ground down surface - leaving a porous surface that has, over time, filled up with dirt and grime. When it came out of the "factory" it did not look like this.

The prongs are dead right for a dagger, but the markings raise another question, well not a question really, but an observation regarding "If a diamond wiggles" on a HJ knife.

Well we know that some makers, like Deschler for example, made diamonds with sunken markings, and this one shows raised markings, meaning that depending on the actual diamond used for the knife, whether it had all the markings and plate SUNK into the badge reverse, or not, would also play a part in, "If the diamond wiggles"

Because if they were raised, like this one, then there is no way that the diamond can sit 100% flush into the knife recess, without having a minimal "play-room". If the markings were sunken, as well as pin plate, then it would obviously sit 100% flush in the recess, with no play-room.

So the actual makings, as well as pin plate, on the reverse of the HJ knife diamonds, also play a big part in "If it will wiggle or not" as well, and well as usage, size, care taken in attaching it etc etc......
 
I wonder how DD harris will react to this diamond as well, as he states a few times on his site and in videos that if the diamond is silver, like this one, it usually means that its a fake :)

Interesting though to se that it has only been partially silver-washed. I have found this one many other small badges, but it`s not the "usual" way to find them, they are either completely silver-washed, on not at all. Maybe with this one they knew that it was intended for a HJ knife, and the reverse would never see the light of day, so saw no need to dip it completely into the bath, and only dipped the obverse!

Nice badge btw, and without any doubt, 100% original, with no questions at all, either pertaining to the opaque enamel, quality, silver-ness (lol) or markings!
 
How did Herman react to seeing this badge Mac?

Garry no reply from Herman/Victorman as yet, maybe he is in denial ;)

@Jo Rivett, All original hj knife diamonds i have handled & seen over the years have raised RZM markings,

The opaque red enamel pictured above seemingly came out of this early hj knife but i,m waiting on confirmation on this. note the diamond point edges are filed down slightly.

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Then it is clear why diamonds wiggle. The cut out for the diamond was a standard cut out, and did not vary from maker to maker to incorp. various sizes and designs of HJ diamond, the only thing that changed would be the diamond, from maker to maker. Like i said, most used raised markings and some inset, so when you compare the grove to the image (see image) you can clearly see where the RZM logo, as well as the Makers RZM code, would be resting on top of the recess... meaning of course that it can never sit 100% flush into the cut-out, and NOT WIGGLE !

So theres you answer as to why they wiggle. (Of course there are a few other reasons to incorporate like i mentioned, usage, care taken in affixing the diamond etc..)
If normal membership diamonds were used, just with a different prong set up of course, but with the same raised markings, then its not possible for them to sit flush, they will, and must wiggle. BUT, if a maker had a specific knife diamond die, or used inset markings, (like deschler etc) then they wont wiggle.

See, common logic can usually answer questions without having to rely on witchcraft, or listen to stories of why something should do something but no clown knows why, other than it must do that!

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