M7/36 E&F Hörster HJ knife with solid red enamel diamond insignia

Scott; :swissthats not a quote from me, but from that WAF user.

The question is: Has anyone ever considered how to tell if the diamond has been replaced, either pre or post war? Is that even possible at all?

Until now in this thread, i have more or less stuck to defending the use of opaque red enamel. What else could i say about knives? i know they hurt when someone stabs you with one, but thats about it. Apart from the common sense questions, i am not really the person to talk too about HJ knives.

One way i can think of, to be more-or-less-ish sure if the diamond is genuine to the knife, would be to put it under the microscope, and to concentrate on the minute space between the grips and diamond, at the very least it would need to be choka-bloc full of debris, fat, dirt grime etc..... if it was not, if you could see straight down between the slits/gaps onto the base of the grip, then i would be worried. That would fall under the "patina" category, and common sense dictates that the knife was held by sweaty hands on that exact spot, and could obviously never be cleaned, or ridden of the grime, which would have built up over time, and today, 80 years later would surely be present.

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This is the thin slit i am referring to, that runs around the diamond.

Now this is where i personally would start, just because of common sense really. The next "thing" i would do, would be to ignore the strap, and ignore the scabbard altogether. Exclude them completely from any analysis. These are party that could have been replaced, either pre or post war. The scabbard, well that goes without saying, it really has nothing to do with the knife, and there cant really be any way to be sure at all if the scabbard always belonged to the knife.

On to the quote that you re-quoted, from WAF.
Pointless. A maker of the blade did not make the diamond. These were made by completely different companies, and then ordered by either the maker of the blade, or the hilfsfabrik that put the knife together. Makers would have been ordering diamonds as they needed, and depending what was around at that time, in their area.
For example, I was making blades, but not many, say i had an order for a few thousand a year. You were also making blades but had orders all the time. I ordered a few thousand diamonds in 1938 to tide me over, but never used them all. You needed to order diamonds all the time, and so you took, or were supplied with, whatever was available. I, on the other hand, always had a box of translucent diamonds to use, because i had enough in stock. So in 1941, you were using opaque diamonds because that is all you could get in your area, and i was using translucent to the very end. This is the reality of it Scott. This is why makers in Germany, Austria, the Sudetenland and Lord knows where, were never ALL using the same stuff, at the same time. It would have depended on what the maker had, what he could get, what he was supplied with, and dont forget the Hilfsfabriken, if this maker was sub-contracting out work to a few different places, there would be a few different "versions" of the same product, just assembled differently using different stuff, according to period and area.

It would help i guess, and give you a basic overview if you got some "list" together, but the clue here would be to incorporate forensics into it somehow. Not forensics of the actual badge surface as such, as that could have been replaced, but rather forensics with the focus being on connecting diamond with grip, for a long time. (Silver-wash present on parts of the diamond that could theoretically not be touched after assembly, and the grime/patina deep own in the slits.
 

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I was writing as you posted that Jo so I'll post a shortened version. If the knife guys are absolutely positive that they are looking at unaltered knives then the question of whether a knife with one of these diamonds is from the period has been answered. There isn't really any requirement to compile a long list of makers. Jo's forensic technique shows that the peppery solid red enamel was used during the period so there is no argument there either in my opinion. What Jo says about manufacturers ordering batches of diamonds and having no control over what they received is stated, for example, in the 1935 order that introduced RZM markings on HJ knives. Again, no argument on that point either.

So, all of the ingredients are there (authentic knife with an authentic peppery solid red diamond) so the question should be (as Jo says) "have any of these knives been altered?". That would be the next logical step in this process. The aim shouldn't be to satisfy that one person though as he seems particularly resistant to the idea that he may be mistaken.
 
MWF; said:
It would help i guess, and give you a basic overview if you got some "list" together, but the clue here would be to incorporate forensics into it somehow. Not forensics of the actual badge surface as such, as that could have been replaced, but rather forensics with the focus being on connecting diamond with grip, for a long time. (Silver-wash present on parts of the diamond that could theoretically not be touched after assembly, and the grime/patina deep own in the slits.


MWF, Thats a Good Idea as well as examining the rivets, griplate to see if they have been messed with or restored,

I think its an impossible job to fit a daimond into the griplate recess the same way it would have been fitted in the factory during the period, you would destroy the tangs & there would be no wiggle/movement if it was jammed or glued into place, there is no room between the griplate slot & blade tang to do this job correctly!!, i personally have owned several hj knifes with the solid red enamel daimonds that has no signs of damage or were messed about with good movement to the daimond this is one of my main reasons for believing that solid red daimonds were fitted into hj knifes during the period.



Regards Mac 66.]
 
The aim shouldn't be to satisfy that one person though
Of course not, the aim should be to try and find out a way to be "comfortable" with the knife and diamond, meaning having a little more info, something that the eye cant see, but something that should logically be there IF both were married after manufacture, and never taken apart again. Hold on., let me whip out Mr Microscope and i`ll try and give you an example.
 
Would Xray be also of help in determining original diamond? This is being shown by Russell in post #24 of this thread
 
Here is a close up photo of janjans solid red hj daimond insignia on his knife from WAF, looks like this one has been in place since manufacture, also attached is another photo showing how the hj daimond insignia is fixed into the griplate by the 2 tangs bent over to hold it tightly in place, now this shows it is impossible to fit the daimond into the griplate when complete & held tight by the rivets: "No Room", you would need to drill out the origional rivets & split the griplates apart to do the job correctly when a knife has lost its origional daimond imo,


Regards Mac 66.

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Have a quote from John Grafs Military Trader Newsletter " Advances in affordable infared, X-ray and microsopic photography, chemical analysis and archival research, however, will change the way we do business. In the next 20 or 30 years,we will be hearing a whole lot less of " He said it was good"and more of, "Let me show you the lab's determination." The link to the entire article is here Who Very interesting. This is used with Mr. Grafs permission
 
Have a quote from John Grafs Military Trader Newsletter " Advances in affordable infared, X-ray and microsopic photography, chemical analysis and archival research, however, will change the way we do business. In the next 20 or 30 years,we will be hearing a whole lot less of " He said it was good"and more of, "Let me show you the lab's determination." The link to the entire article is here Who Very interesting. This is used with Mr. Grafs permission
Mauser. 20-30 years? we cant wait that long. This is a topic that i am pushing "with some force" in my book this year. Not only talking about it, but demonstrating and proving that it is the only way forward! I will PM you "something" in a minute or two.
 
Without a doubt this Opaque red enamel hj diamond insignia was produced to fit into the hj knife griplate recess

Marked > RZM M1/13 L.Christian Lauer, Nürmberg


Regards Mac 66.

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Annnddd, here we go with the war again. :spain:scot

Good luck Mac, but, as we say in Spain (more or less), "the worst blind person is the one, who doesnt want to see".

I dont know if those existed or not, so far you are the only one making an effort to probe it. The book from Jo comes slowly home so I can have a look and hopefully it will help me to understand more. But something can not be taken from that discussion and that is your effort to probe it. Well done!

Best Regards

Antonio
 
Great patina on that piece as well. Apart from the scratch marks on the reverse where someone has plied it off the handle, the reverse still has 100% of the silver wash, whereas the obverse has seen good use! Looks as well like a piece made from messing, as its also possible to find the opaque ones on magnetic eisen, & plated eisen.

Antonio, yes, specifically between pages 347 and 358:violin:and on many pages after that as well point backs and elaborations.
 
Great patina on that piece as well. Apart from the scratch marks on the reverse where someone has plied it off the handle, the reverse still has 100% of the silver wash, whereas the obverse has seen good use! Looks as well like a piece made from messing, as its also possible to find the opaque ones on magnetic eisen, & plated eisen.

MWF,


I agree 100%!


Regards Mac 66.
 
How did he react when you showed the diamond?

Victorman:
If that is proof, than I can also proof that blue and green diamonds are original without a problem!

And which superb & original HJ knife has been brooken up to provide this so called "proof"?

I know that business is a bid low for some... so let's sell some parts -original or not- right?



Enjoy collecting !

Victorman

PS: will not go into discussion again, lost enough time already!
 
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Edit: there was a longer post here originally but I decided to reduce it to:

Has he ever seen this item before? What makes him so sure that it isn't original / how does he know that it's a fake? Where's his research? I don't see anything in his statement that covers any of that. He alludes to more but stops short of actually saying it. Perhaps he can't prove a thing and is simply blocking - who knows.
 
Edit: there was a longer post here originally but I decided to reduce it to:

Has he ever seen this item before? What makes him so sure that it isn't original / how does he know that it's a fake? Where's his research? I don't see anything in his statement that covers any of that. He alludes to more but stops short of actually saying it. Perhaps he can't prove a thing and is simply blocking - who knows.



Garry,


Herman has never proved that any Qpaque red enamel hj diamonds fitted into hj knifes or hj membership badges are Fake, he simply does not know & will always say they were never fitted into hj knifes during period production, this is the type of person we are dealing with on this subject. we say Black with proof he says White with No proof.



Regards Mac 66.
 
Hi Mac,

Understood. Check my signature for a suitable response to arguments like his :thumb:
 
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