My three Hitler Youth daggers - opinions please

gus

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Hi all, I have three HJ daggers well I hope they are genuine lol.
The first one I have owned for nearly 30 years it is very hard to read the maker mark I tried to take photos but I can only read it at a certain angle.It is marked RZM M7/2 1937 on ricasso with moto on same side I believe maker Emil Voos Waffenfabrik ? The diamond has a nice fish scale and a little movement the finger guard is damaged no scabbard.
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The second is marked M7/13 Arthur Schüttelhofer & Co., Solingen-Wald ? no moto the diamond seems fine and has a little movement.The scabbard I don't think is right it is magnetic.
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The third is marked M7/68 Tigerwerk Lauterjung & Co., Solingen no moto again I think the diamond seems alright with some movement.The scabbard is marked LS on the rear.
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Hi there, M7/2 knives with the RZM and maker on the opposite side to the blut und ehre motto are considered very troublesome. There are known fakes with that configuration but also some good knives. Hopefully you'll get more opinions on your example.
 
Hi there, M7/2 knives with the RZM and maker on the opposite side to the blut und ehre motto are considered very troublesome. There are known fakes with that configuration but also some good knives. Hopefully you'll get more opinions on your example.

Thanks for the reply the RZM,maker and moto are all on the same side.
 
Okay, that's a good sign. I like the knife, particularly as it has clearly seen good use, but I'm sure you'll get other opinions.
 
The first knife shown with the RZM mark on the obverse ricasso is a fake - see some other examples in the "Fakes" section.

The other two, M7/13 and the Tiger are both good knives. The scabbard with the M7/13 looks repainted and possibly correct but not complete. It should be magnetic - can you please post better pics of the scabbard only?

Regards

Russ
 
Gus, here are a couple of other M7/2 fakes for your info.

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Regards

Russ
 

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The first knife shown with the RZM mark on the obverse ricasso is a fake - see some other examples in the "Fakes" section.

The other two, M7/13 and the Tiger are both good knives. The scabbard with the M7/13 looks repainted and possibly correct but not complete. It should be magnetic - can you please post better pics of the scabbard only?

Regards

Russ

Thanks for the reply.The first knife was the first I ever bought 30 years ago.
I must admit I am surprised I didn't think the diamond moved on fake daggers.
The M7/13 scabbard has been repainted and an awful job the person made of it.The scabbard is magnetic the leather and rivet holding it on don't look right.
 
Hi Gus, thanks for the info.

You, and countless others have fallen to the myth that diamonds must move on original knives. This is complete rubbish. Many people will miss out on an original knife if they apply this myth. And you have fallen foul of it by using this myth as a sole determinant to identify originality. I have written a thread on Diamond movement on this forum, which explains why this is rubbish. You should read it and become more familiar with what to look for to identify an original knife.

Your knife is an old fake, so it could be 30 years of age, or older. They are often paired with original scabbards and with the amount of time since they were 'new', they can obtain a lot of age and wear, which fools even more people.

I hope this info is useful to you.

Regards

Russ
 
Hi Gus, thanks for the info.

You, and countless others have fallen to the myth that diamonds must move on original knives. This is complete rubbish. Many people will miss out on an original knife if they apply this myth. And you have fallen foul of it by using this myth as a sole determinant to identify originality. I have written a thread on Diamond movement on this forum, which explains why this is rubbish. You should read it and become more familiar with what to look for to identify an original knife.

Your knife is an old fake, so it could be 30 years of age, or older. They are often paired with original scabbards and with the amount of time since they were 'new', they can obtain a lot of age and wear, which fools even more people.

I hope this info is useful to you.

Regards

Russ

Hi Russ,

I bought the knife in 1990 I thought it was 30 years ago my wife says it was 1990, we were on holiday I bought it from a little antique shop.I paid very little for it and it looked like it does now hence why I was fooled it looks battered and old.Someone spent a lot of time faking that knife the blade wear looks good as does the patina the moto even feels etched or have I got that wrong? lol
 
Sorry to say you've got it wrong, it is still a fake.

The early fakes did have etched mottos.

The RZM marking on the obverse ricasso of your knife looks identical to the other two I've shown on this thread. Any knife that is marked in this exact way is a fake - originals are completely different. The M7/2 fake is the most commonly seen fake knife - you see them in near mint condition, and in an aged condition like yours. Paired with a real scabbard, they often fool people.

But, please feel free to get other opinions if you think I'm wrong, no problem.

Regards

Russ
 
Sorry to say you've got it wrong, it is still a fake.

The early fakes did have etched mottos.

The RZM marking on the obverse ricasso of your knife looks identical to the other two I've shown on this thread. Any knife that is marked in this exact way is a fake - originals are completely different. The M7/2 fake is the most commonly seen fake knife - you see them in near mint condition, and in an aged condition like yours. Paired with a real scabbard, they often fool people.

But, please feel free to get other opinions if you think I'm wrong, no problem.

Regards

Russ

Hi Russ,
No I don't think your wrong at all I am learning and taking note.I can see mine is fake it looks the same as the fakes you have shown.When I bought that knife the internet did not exist I didn't know anyone who collected bayonets,daggers etc no one to advise me.
I was asking if I had got the etching part wrong and you have now told me I did I was not disagreeing with you and I apologise if you think I was.Thank you for taking the time to reply and for your link and advice.
 
Hi Gus, no apology necessary, if your knife motto is etched, that is often seen on these fakes. I think I mis-interpreted your comment, so for that I apologise to you! It is what sometimes happens when in a hurry! I'm very happy to help where I can.

If you're interested in the organisations covered in this forum, you have come to the right place. There are many very knowledgable people here who are willing to offer help if required. And there are some amazing collections to be viewed as well.

Regards

Russ
 
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