So- called DJ (Deutsches Jungvolk) 1936 Olympics knife just sold

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Sold seconds after being uploaded a so called DJ Olympic knife in unissued condition. let the debate begin :biggrin1:. sold on LAKESIDE TRADER SITE



:canada1

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When i get home tomorrow i`ll add a few thoughts and pics to this. IMHO, they are a post war joke item that never existed. There is more than one reason why they cant be Authentic, despite what Tom Johnsons dagger books say. (The same dagger books that authenticated the Birdshead dagger)
 
THE ETCHING SAYS IT ALL BOGUS they just did not do it that way. Will be interested in your thoughts on this and hope much more discussion is generated


:canada1
 
Before it vanishes, here is the Description from Lakeside trader:
DJ-15 Voos Olympic Commemorative Knife
Ok guys right off the bat I'll speak to this piece. There is some controversy surrounding this one. Some people feel they are post-war production since we have no period pictures of this in wear. Most believe, as I do, that these were all produced for the 1936 Olympics and were never authorized for issue. The result is they sat in a warehouse till after the war and then discovered and brought home. So much is still to be learned in this hobby, perhaps some day we will know the full history of these. Till then I just suggest you just enjoy this for what it is a very cool knife. The blade is in fairly good condition. There is some stain where the runners rested on the blade for so many years. Other than that it's stone mint. The blade also retains its brown buffer pad. The scabbard has some wear and a few odd scratches, although remains dent-free and is in good condition. The leather on the scabbard is fine and the front button cover and has some scratches. The hilt fittings are aluminum. The stag grip plates are undamaged and secured with aluminum rivets. The diamond retains 100% of its enamel and looks very nice. Comes with it's issue bag. Overall rates NM
$750 HOLD(rs)

More to follow once i am on the main pc.
 
The Fantasy Olympic Knife

First some facts.

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In order for anyone to use the Olympic Symbol on any kind of product they intended to sell, they would have explicitly needed a “Antrag auf verwendung der Olympischen Symbole”. This was mentioned over and over from both the RZM and also mentioned in the UM from December 1935 onwards. (see UM 1. Dez 1935 page 2.)

The above is backed up in particular on pages 177 & 178 of the August 1936 UM, in the Special Olympic article that they feature. (see screen shots below, or see/download the Complete issue mentioned here) They do not only mention and picture many Olympic items, they also go into great detail concerning “Fake-Bogus-Dodgy” items that were seized, or items made without a permit. On Page 178 there is mention of Haar und Kopfschmuck that bore the Olympic logo, that was all seized, as well as mention of Fake Olympic Stickpins, that were thankfully seized before the Olympics.. And mentioning that Any item whatsoever that is Not standard may be seized and destroyed by the Police. The list of items is long, and they are mentioned in detail..

All the UM and RZM articles before and after the 1936 Olympics make no mention of any Daggers made, no mention to any knives being made, no mention to any Daggers or Knives seized, no mention of anyone who had applied to make Daggers or Knives. They do however mention every other small item like the puny Olympic Stickpins, and in fact go into great detail about them.

There is no mention whatsoever in any Period 1936-1945 publication mentioning these Knives at all.

There are no Period shop window display photos that picture anything remotely similar to these Knives. (The UM series contains at least 50 Period show window photos, as well as many more known in Private collections.
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The makers mark on these bogus daggers is by a Maker who produced daggers long after the 1936 Olympics. If the sellers theory that They were never authorised for issue is true, then this raises a few questions.

• They were made without a permit, and emblazoned with the makers details, not something any maker would have dreamt of doing in 1936 if he knew he had no permit, or was producing something that he was no allowed to, or was of abysmal quality.

•They were confiscated by the Authorities as being non regulatory.
If this were the case, they would be mentioned as the other non regulatory items were, and The maker would most certainly have been reprimanded, if not had his RZM number taken away and/or imprisoned/executed/Sent to Gulag.

Can the seller back this up? "The result is they sat in a warehouse till after the war and then discovered and brought home."
No, of course he can not, it is just his opinion.

Analze this:
"is some controversy surrounding this one. Some people feel they are post-war production since we have no period pictures of this in wear."
No, there is no controversy, the Historical facts show us that they were not around in 1936. We don’t needs to go on „no period photos...“ that is a lame excuse, and should of course never be used to Authenticate or dismiss any item. The facts should always come first, Period info, History before opinion or assumption.

Most believe, as I do, that these were all produced for the 1936 Olympics
No, this is a cheap sales gag and misleading tag line. If going by any knowledgeable posts on Forums both in Europe (MFF) and the US, Most believe that they are post war Fantasy items. That’s the truth, for anyone who dared to research and read a bit before blindly believing any Dealers sales pitch.

The only way this dagger has sold, is because the person who bought it, has no intention of learning anything, and just wanted a cool dagger at a cool price. If the buyer does believe that it is real, then he has been Hook-line and sinkered by the Sellers Reputation, and his lack of willing to research he collects, and turn to facts first before reaching any assumption.. that’s all.
Anyone is entitled to an Assumption, but when the Assumption is backed by nothing other than credentials, then it`s a sales-pitch based on ones Reputation or standing within the community. You only have to look at Good sites, like they used to be, for example Ruptured Duck, Beck Militaria, Collectors Guild etc etc, all gone downhill over the past years and listing more and more Unique pieces of Sh1t based on Opinion, and totally ignoring common sense and proven, researched factual History first.

When you only have a „it is my opinion“ to defend an Item like this, then the seller has only his reputation to rely on, and knows it.

Do you want one? Even cheaper ?
There are a few models as well, and even a few different makers and maker-marked bags, and different versions, different etchings, different colors.
Millshop will always have a Box of them at the German Fairs. You will see him at Cassel this year selling more. Another German small time Dealer, Mr Haas sells them all the time, and strangely does not allow anyone to discuss any item of his on any forum, he will threaten Legal action against anyone who mentions his name.
On Militaria-Company they can always be had from a seller known as Mr Sager. And on Best-Aniques.com they are also a frequent guest-Star.

Pic below are screen shots from the above mentioned sellers auctions/websites.
Sometimes, when you can follow a particular item back to the same few people, and especially if you know anything about these certain people, then that alone is enough to just walk away and smile. Save yourself the 500 that one of these will cost you, they are Post war Hokus Pokus, backed up with not a single incy wincy bit of period information, no mention, not a whisper, and you know why? Because they have nothing to do with the 1936 Olympics or the TR era.. Thats my personal opinion, based on the Research that i have done into these particular Daggers, as well as the 1935 Reichsparteitag Dagger engraved in a similar way, and also found in abundance by the same sellers in mint condition with bag as well as experience based on meeting, knowing and dealing with the sorts of people who always sell these.

Why Lakeside Traders believe that they are real? Why would they need to turn to a Theory and refuse to acknowledge the Period facts, and History. I don't know? i would have thought that any Reputable dealer would prefer to back a Unique item item up with Facts rather than just what he thinks? Maybe they really believe that "most" think they are real? maybe these Reputable Dealers are just so far out of contact with the Real collecting community today, and stuck inside their own little dealer-friend bubble, that they only exchange thoughts amongst each other, and evaluate their items within there small circle? i dont know, and i dont care, truth is that facts top anyone's Opinion, and in this case, the lack of, coupled with everything mentioned above about where they come from says enough.

Edit: This is a very good example of how the community has split in recent years, and cliques of "Dealers" have formed on both continents. We have a few bad German names, who always seem to have the best and unique-est items, always, ramming their opinion and reputation down our necks and force feeding us into swallowing their assumptions. The same can be said of the USA clan of 10-15 "Dealers" who do the same. These "Dealer" clans are trying to gain the upper hand on the TR market and open the gates for plain fantasy cr4p that will help them into Pension in the next 10-15 years, because they do retire at 45-50 and get out of the business, this has just happened in Germany with D.N. These Clans have lost all contact with Reality when it comes to the collector on the street, who is starting out, and using these Trusted names as some indication that everything they say and offer is Gospel, Stone cold Mint ! It`s called, Changing History to suit Financial gain.

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hi joe
thats a very detailed reply that was a great read.you have more patience than me as i would stick to 2 words TOTAL CRAP lol

notice in the descrition of lakeside he leaves their originality open, and instead sells the dagger as a nice dagger
 
notice in the descrition of lakeside he leaves their originality open, and instead sells the dagger as a nice dagger
Well not really, he says that he is also of the opinion that... Most believe, as I do, that these were all produced for the 1936 Olympics and were never authorized for issue. The result is they sat in a warehouse till after the war and then discovered and brought home

That statement could be used on any and every fantasy item. What i still dont get is this "most believe" punch line. Reality, and forum threads all overspeak a different language. This is what i mean about these Dealers distancing themselves from Reality, and living in a fairy world of selling anything on the basis that a few of their known friends give it their blessing, and it dont matter a hoot what the remaining 99% of collectors think.

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Good old Charlie has both versions too (see left), and if you ask Lana and Bob from Germanicvs-Internationalvs, they will be able to whip another from their magic hat, Guaranteed. Most of the time, there are the words "extremely rare" next to the sales description. But are they rare? and why does it appear, that the majority of these are sold by known Avon Calling rejects and plain sinister creatures that go bump in the night and make ones hair stand up. Stuarts right, you dont even need history with these, all you need to do is add 2 and 2, and you`ll come up with 7 .. all the time.

A small problem in Lakesidetraders description is the following....The result is they sat in a warehouse till after the war and then discovered and brought home:
This is not based on anything other than a cheap sales line, i dont know of one single case or item (in this case, crates and crates full of daggers with mint paper bags) that has ever been discovered from the 1936 olympics, that was never authorized, and sat in a warehouse until after the war where it was then discovered, and brought home. So what is this statement based on? certainly not a previous occurance, so it`s clear, 100% BS tag line to help influence those that can still think.. a little, but who should not, and should rather leave that up to the seller.








 

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I would really like to see this thread dwell on the virtues and provenance albeit none of this knife and stay away from character assassination and conspiracy theories . This particular dealer tries hard and I know if I had a chance to inform him of my opinions he may have withdrawn it as is his policy in past when this has happened and in fact is a rarity on his site. Paul in this case I believe was sold a basket of worms by one of the big guys down in the states who in fact knew full well what he had sold. I do due diligence on everything I buy and never get in bed with a dealer that is my job so please lets discuss the knife .


:canada1
 
I've never been a believer in any of these "DJ" or "BDM" knives personally. Joe makes some valid points IMO regarding faked or unlicensed items during the period in his second post.
 
anyhow what is with these DJ knifes around right now, they never had a separate style of knife. Here is one from the same dealer described as a DJ knife. HERE IS THE DESCRIPTION

ere's a solid example of a DJ knife in good shape. The blade on this example is in excellent condition. There is some very minor wear, with light runner marks and some oxidization to the lower reverse. The blade is factory sharpened with very nice crossgrain. The blade rates Exc++. The buffer pad is lost to time. The black painted scabbard is in great condition with minor wear/paint loss. The black leather has some wear most notably a crack to the top snap loop, it's not broken but just take care with it. The aluminum hilt is in excellent condition with practically no wear! The celluloid black checkered grip plates are held together with 2 aluminum rivets and are also is excellent condition! This is a very nice example! Overall rates Exc+/Exc++

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Great posts Jo. I will be working on our CMS page over the next days and will be populating it with threads like this one. I was always at a loss as to what to do with the 'home page' but I see a perfect use for it now :thumb:
 
Both in the RZM and UM they warn against using the Olympic symbol for, or in conjunction with Propaganda slogans. (See first December issue 1935) The stamp on the packet "Berliner Olympiade" is not only suspect due to the fact that the games were not known by this name, but simply as the Olympics, or Olympics in Berlin, but not the Berlin-Olympics.. the stamp is also the same as those on the 1935 Reichsparteitag Knives, and their mint bags, and their mint enamel pianted deep etched colorfull logos :thumbdown:
Why would there be a HJ connection with these olympic knives? Sometimes they are also advertised as DJ or BDM Olympic knives, wheres the connection? I think i read on either Snyders or Germanicvs-Terriblvs that they were "Handed out to the HJ who helped with the Olympics"? something like that? Is there any mention of this in a HJ/BDM/DJ book/paper/announcement?
Maybe DJ because some of these knives are a little smaller? hence = for small boys with small hands?

Paul, yes i know the man behind Lakesidetraders, and have done business with him a few times, purchasing two daggers from him in 2006 for approx. $5-6000.- (i dont remember any more) and of course the odd small item for myself from him recently as well. But like i said in This older post, relating to these bogus Olympic daggers, sometimes the good guys do get caught out, or, they go with the flow.

So if we take LST out of this discussion for a moment, the fact that these are always available by the same dealers that have come to leave a bitter taste in our mouths over the years, and who a quick forum check will show that they are anything but reliable and honest, then when discussing these specific items, it`s only logical that their names will be included, after all, they are the culprits who are spinning the stuff onto the web and into collections, and recently onto a few good trusted websites.

And when it comes to the actual dagger? well apart from the counterpart 1935 Reichsparteitag dagger, there are no others that show this abysmal deep etching with enamel paints.
 
Actually, the following sums up everything i have said. Taken from this page.
Quote: I know there is quite a debate about these, but all the big boys say it is legitimate. It is a mint example Blade has all the crossgraining. Colors are outstanding. During the 1936 olympics, there were sold as souvenir
So all the Big Boys think they are real? So bloody what... how could this statement possibly add a shred of weight to the items authenticity? in fact it does just the opposite. And now we have another Theory, that they were not, as LST thought, never authorized and sat in a box until they were discovered... they were sold as souvenirs.
Problems here are:
The HJ Diamond was an Official, protected logo that was not allowed for usage on Souvenirs and only allowed to be used by those who had the appropiate ID to confirm that they were an HJ/BDM member.
The Olympic logo is used together with propaganda, which was forbidden.

You see where it`s going, Reputation takes precedence over fact.... sad really, but if you fall for the sales pitch, you deserve to get burnt IMHO.
 
JUST TO PLAY devil's advocate here, could a reputable company with license not have thought ahead in anticipation of great sales and made up a batch of these. We know that small hoards are still showing up the DESCHLER HOARD FOR INSTANCE.
In my talks with LAKESIDE he claims that there are period pics of the DJ style in wear through WITTMAN but not seen to this date


:canada1
 
JUST TO PLAY devil's advocate here, could a reputable company with license not have thought ahead in anticipation of great sales and made up a batch of these. We know that small hoards are still showing up the DESCHLER HOARD FOR INSTANCE.
In my talks with LAKESIDE he claims that there are period pics of the DJ style in wear through WITTMAN but not seen to this date
They would have needed a special permit to use the five ringed olympic logo, thats a documented fact. (Makers knew this moths before the olympics) And no such dagger, permit application, idea, design is mentioned in any official source. (Whereas other bogus items are, more than once, even small mundane items)
Why would they? what did the HJ have to do with the olympics?
They would have needed to make a few and send them off for inspection/approval.
Why would they have made a knife in this manner? when no other confirmed TR era dagger/knife has this kind of etching/painting? (except the same bogus 1935 Reichsparteitag dagger) in fact, no ther Olympic item shows this whacky style and primative etching.
If they somehow made a few hundred, that were refused, not authorized, then why would they have sat in a box for the next 10 years and not have been recycled later when materials were in high demand.

(Maybe they were hidden away in a loft and just laid waiting for one of these Big Boys to discover them?)

To address the Deschler Hoard, well if you believe in such things, i personally dont. Peter Stahls 1969 books also mentions these bogus "Hoards" that turn up. Its a nice Tag line, especially when a reputatble dealer uncovers a Hoard.. you can read above in my last post, what the verdic is on these big Boys and their theories... If they say it`s so, then it`s so. Whenever i read a sales pitch like "The Big Boys all say it`s so.." then that is enough for me to automatically think something is not right. Why is it that these Big Boys can never support any claim with fact, but rely solely on their reputation and that of their friends ?

Two points, on a seperate thread, i could prove that these big boys dont know much about history, even their smallest items are sometimes riddled with a cheesy description, small 40 buck tinnies described as The only one known, and prices at 400.- when the Tinnie catalog shows them at value 40.- maximum. and other stories on their sites of Hoards that are plain rubbish.
Point two. I have older eMail conversations between the person who makes these Bogus Olympic daggers, and other big name (now desceased) who puchased a box from him. Probably around 25 mails between them, discussing not only these daggers, but also the new fake SS cap sets, and a few more items. The mails themselves make for a book, and will at some point be published or posted on a forum. In fact, some were even returned to him as they were "Too obvious that they were modern".

And as far as any Photo from Wittmann goes, well look at his Friend Tom Johnson and the Published, factory Photos of the Birdshead dagger, which as it turned out, was a rather pathetic modern photo from James Atwood, yet on the basis of a published comment "here is a factory photo.." the community is supposed to automatically believe the Big Boys. Besides, No Period info, no Period mention, no evidence to support this dagger in the slightest, nothing at all, yet a Rumor that another big name has a period in wear photo?

Always the same few Big Boys mentioned, and only these big boys have the photos, only they have the daggers, and only they know that they are real?...... naaaaah, i prefer to support my yeah or nay on actual research first, known facts and only after that do i dare to make assumtions... and if i do, then my assumtion would be based on fact and similarities and occurances... not based on what a Big Boy is supposed to have...
 
I know this talk about period pictures has been around for some time and never a word from the so called owners even after being called out on various forums to which they will never post but still are there, I totally agree with what you say for most part. I do believe the DESCHLER HOARD did exist and have several pieces from it. I am most interested in thoughts on that plain so called dj knife


:canada1
 
Without having to clip and post any parts of the emails i mentioned (and i will one day when the time is right and i can squash 10 flies with one blow) i leave you with a little hint of where they "might" originate from.
Link Here, and a snippet from the description below:
PRICE: COLLECTORS, WE SOLD THE LAST OF THESE OVER A YEAR AGO to the disappointment of enthusiastic collectors. But NOW we have managed to acquire a few more, but they won’t last long. These even have the original issue bags with them! $1,600.00 while they last. Don’t hesitate!!!
What the above does not mention, is that these "few More" will never all be sold, as the box of them is Huge.. check him out at the next Show, he always has a few with him. If you take a few, he will drop the price (i can back this up with his own words)
 
This Olympic Dagger, that the Big Boys all say is Real, well it`s a bit confusing, they all seem to agree that they are genuine, yet their stories vary..
World Daggers take:
During the 1936 olympics, there were sold as souvenirs.
Lana Johnsons take:
..and was specially produced for a presentation gift to the young people from the N.S. Youth Organization, who did so much to help with this the grandest of Olympiads.
Lakeside Traders take:
these were all produced for the 1936 Olympics and were never authorized for issue. The result is they sat in a warehouse till after the war and then discovered and brought home.

Three Big Boys, three totally different stories :hand totally different prices too, ranging from €500.- a pop at Milishop and Mr Haas, to $1600.- a pop in the USA. (and now $750 in Canada) Yes, indeed the Big Boys know that they are real, each one will have a different story as to why they are real and what they were made for, and also each dealer will have his own price, depending of course on how often he can sell them.

Why do they sell? Well if i knew nothing and was just starting out, id see one up for sale at Mili321 or Milshop or Mr haas, as they always are each day of the week, and i would do a quick check on google, i would see one at Germanicvs for $1600.- and read on the net that all the Big Boys say they are real, and i would think that i was getting a bargain at €500.- They dont really look that bad actually, and i guess would apeal to some people, but to make up stories about them without being able to back that story up with a shred of proof, is not really the way the Hobby should be going. 50 years ago yes, today with this Knowledge-exchange per mail and web in a jiffy, and archives/Period facts at our fingertips, most definitely not.

What still gets me, is this "most believe they are real" sales line by Lakesidetraders, this is just not true. It`s the exact opposite ! You can google old threads from many different forums in different languages, and read the exact opposite.. The only people who seem to think that they are real, are those who are selling them, and their sales pitch varies...considerably too.


 
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