Wittmann attempts to reinvent the history of the Hitler Youth Knife

Garry

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According to the blurb on his website, US militaria dealer Wittmann reports that he has found proof that the standard HJ/DJ knife (Fahrtenmesser) existed prior to 1933. The basis for this assumption is that the Eickhorn logo on a knife he has for sale dates to the late 1920s. Ergo, the knife must be "Ultra-Early". Well, that is simply an impossibility as research here on this forum has shown.

Wittmann is not alone in this but he is a dealer who also believes in the period existence of official knives designed and made specifically for the Deutsches Jungvolk (the so-called 'DJ knife'). He also believes in the 'BDM knife' - another fantasy description and attribution.

The price for this "late-1920s" HJ knife?

1395US.... The original sales blurb is here.

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Stu,

As usual with a lot of dealers you get the odd fact which is then overladen with flowery sales-speak of little substance. His central argument is that because the Eickhorn logo is early then it must follow that the knife dates to the same period. He then goes on to waffle about the construction detail (which you see on early knives anyway) and lets the reader reach his own conclusion. As we know, the standard HJ knife was not introduced before 1933 so I find it extremely annoying to think that buyers who might not know much about these knives are being misled in this way. I've never been a fan of the popular theory 'buyer beware'. If we all thought that then we would achieve little more than making life even easier for the lazy dealers who can't be bothered with even a cursory glance at some period information.
 
This will be taken as fact eventually which is unfortunate.
Actually, it deserves to be taken as fact, anyone who takes it as fact deserves to, Get it? they deserve to loose every penny of their hard earned cash, they deserve to then find out years later after Wittmen dies that they were taken for a fool, played like a Monkey, tossed like a Salad. And yes, it will be taken as fact, you even have big time vegeterians like Craig Gottlieb, a registered member here :lol: , but man of little contribution, (in general) who swears blindly by Wittman, just because Wittman says its original, it must be, and History can go any whistle. Even if it looks like it was made by 12 year old .. if Santa nods, its "Directly from a vets claws"
Nothing to get our hair in a knot about, take it up as a new sport, laughing and pointing fingers at those who will in time show their new Wittman finds on some forum. The man is a Joke, he cant speak German, he doesnt know nearly half as much about daggers as people claim he does, he is on par, if not worse than Charles Snyder when it comes to Dodgy-ness, and all his friends are like-minded..

They are just making themselves look like the prunes that they are.

I would love to go undercover at the MAX, somehow get a speaking role, and address the whole Muppet audience by listing his shortcomings, and the shortcomings, and outright fraud between these "aaw-one-more-hamburger-please"-people.. i`d likely have Coates shoot me on the spot though, chalk my corpus-non-movus up to Terrorism...

On a serious note though, my opinion of what these "i-said-one-more-hamburger-PLEASE!" people is, is that i think they know the new generation of collector is rumbling them, and that their days are slowly coming to a close, and so want to try and get rid of as much smelly stuff before the Hamburger supply runs dry. Why does Wittman never take part on any Forum? because he would be CRUCIFIED, and he knows it, people would ask him questions that he wouldnt be able to answer, and the game would be up.. simple stuff like whats 2 and 2? :sad:
 
Oooops, i made a mistake, i just realized who we were talking about here, so its definitely NOT ONE-more-hamburger-please... its more like thirty-burgers-NOW and what about the tag on this sold knife by the famous Santa? A fantasy piece through and through... 11 hundred dollah ? (dollah pronounced as if you had a hamburger in your mouth)

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There was also at one time a knife marked with the designation RZM M6 (makers of aluminium products) being sold as original.

Regards

Russ
 
I've seen this maker mark several times on HJ knives but this is the first time I've read anything about knives with this mark being manufactured prior to 1933. There is certainly no "proof" as is claimed. It will be interesting to watch the other dealers descriptions if they come across another one of these sometime.

Here's the description to go with the pics in the first post. Because no doubt someone will suck this up.

It also reads like the dealer has never seen this mark before on an HJ knife - it's been in Fisher's for donkey's years.

And there is nothing different about this early knife compared with other manufacturer's early no-ricasso knives.

Regards

Russ

12.HYK #33490C Ultra-Early Hitler Youth Knife – Carl Eickhorn

This early example proves that the Hitler Youth knife was made prior to the Nazis coming to power in 1933. The trademark on this example comes from the late twenties. The rest of the piece also reflects very early construction. The hilt is, of course, of solid steel with good nickel plating. The plating shows some age here and there but the pommel is still quite good as are the front and back plates. The crossguard and quillon have some plating loss but not too bad. The grip plates are very early wood or Bakelite, I can’t be sure. The checkering is the closet grain pattern that you will see on a Hitler Youth knife. These grip plates are both in perfect condition and are retained by solid nickel rivets having dressed heads on the obverse. The grip insignia wiggles nicely and has perfect enamel. The bright colors of red, white, gold and black swastika look great against these quality grip plates. The scabbard is a steel tube type version which is not as pointy as the later pieces. The original paint shows quite a bit of spidering and some wear around the bottom tip as they normally do. Looking inside there are two runners, both of which appear to be aluminum and they and they are the type without the covering over the surfaces. The original leather hanger is still in fine supple condition and is complete with the small grip retainer loop and working snap. The blade of this example is the very early type having no ricasso. It has the motto on the obverse which is still very visible. This motto has about 50-60% of the original darkening still in the backgrounds. Unfortunately the blade has turned fairly gray but at least there is no violent sharpening in the surfaces. The reverse of the blade is extremely interesting as it is stamped with the single oval having a serrated tail seated squirrel inside. This oval trademark traces back to about the 1927 to 1929 period. Beneath the logo is the location city, “Solingen” and “Ges. Geschützt”. It is also interesting to note that the firm’s name of Carl Eickhorn is not included with the logo. I don’t know whether this means anything or not. Perhaps the initial production run was ordered without a factory name? The original leather blade washer is in place. A very interesting Hitler Youth knife here and a must for the serious HJ collector.

Excellent. $1,395.00
 
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August 15te, 1952

This early example proves that the Hitler Youth knife was made prior to the Nazis coming to power in 1933.
This should give you some idea about what all his books are based on, PROOF to him, is what he thinks, and has nothing to do with history. Sounds like the introduction to Clockwork Orange.. What a shamefull thing to do, to use and ABUSE the trust that (some) collectors would have come to place in you over the years, and spin a crock like this on them, and worse, to challenge history itself based on WHAT? because he thinks some logo looks older than 1933? its worse than a flipping joke....
Great though that he writes it, for everyone to see, just how little value he places on history, and to show just how puff his head has gotten in order to allow himself the flipping cheek to go against history based on what he thinks alone, based on looking at one logo.
Anyone who buys his version of History deserves it! Sad really, to see someone that is supposed to be the granddaddy of rock `n roll make a complete idiot out of himself, and sad for the collectors who see this and realize that when they shopped at his store, they didnt buy a piece of History, they bought the opposite because some non-German speaker decided to change History to best suit his wallet. (hamburger time)

This date in this post PROVES, that it the Hitlerjugend Forum was started in 1952! as well as proving that i can time leap.
 
I totally agree with you all, these dealers deserve to be denounced because they represent a shame for the profession and the collection
 
He still has this up for sale... I could show him black on white that he's wrong but he clearly isn't on receive. I hope no one gets stung with this knife.
 
He still has this up for sale... I could show him black on white that he's wrong but he clearly isn't on receive. I hope no one gets stung with this knife.

Well, there will be a time in which a person will buy it, but, once again. Maybe it is because some people are too lazy to think about the knife and just, trust the Shop. it is just like another piece for them, "next please". And that is the sad thing of all this. Some people buy and have NO clue about the piece or why that peice even exists. Why dont they collect key rings? It is the same but cheaper. There are many people out there, who buy like that. And when they are asked about the knife, orden, medal or whatever, the only, ONLY response from them is... well, "I bought it in a trusted well known dealer" and will repeat EXACTLY the same words as writen in the advertisment. And many people will swllow that with or without keptchup.

Anyway Garry and Jo and Russell and many more, thank you very much for your, more than illustrating comments.

But well, just an opinion and may be totally wrong or even offended somebody.

My apologies.

Regards

Antonio
 
You're right Antonio. We just have to keep up the fight :)


Oh, this tiny picture is all anyone considering Mr Wittman's knife needs to see:

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Published on the 7th of October 1933 it says that the Fahrtenmesser was introduced for the HJ and DJ '...a few months ago...'. It will be ignored by certain parties I'm sure...
 

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.....this tiny picture is all anyone considering Mr Wittman's knife needs to see:

....
Dagger-G♥D-N°1. said:
Now listen up sonny boy - a few months might seem like a quick time to you and yo wize-ass cracks over here, but to some of my older, slower-customers, months seem like years, Its a question of interpretation sonny boy, and dont yo forget that now....!! now, where`d ma hamburger go?
 
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You guys are tough. I will try not to step on your toes. Russ , where ould you date the early non standard HJs then ie: the Wustof ww1 figter/low post diamond & the early Pack stuff? I was guessing late 32 early 33.

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We should endeavour not to get any wires crossed here DD. Wittmann is selling a standard HJ knife (see post 1) but is telling the viewer that the knife dates to the late 1920s. That is irresponsible. The knife you are showing is not, as you know, a standard HJ knife and therefore isn't under discussion here. Just wanted to make that clear. There are other threads on your type of knife on the forum though.

We aren't 'tough' by the way; we are simply interested in getting the truth out there. Someone of Mr Wittmann's experience should not be getting elementary stuff like this so dreadfully wrong.
 
You guys are tough.
HI DD, nice to see you here :swiss
Tough? I prefer the word HONEST!
People like Wittmann and friends have been conjuring up descriptions for their fake and fantasy wares for decades. The latest Fantasy Wittman HJ knife to sell, was worth $1,400.-

Can i write complete and utter pooh like;
This is a choice conditioned Nürnberg commemorative knife here and is one of the leftovers that were discovered about a decade ago when the wall came in and allowed “pickers” to investigate the old stores and shops which lay virtually untouched in East Germany.
and then moan that people are being "Tough" on me when questioned?
When the wall came down a decade ago? (1990 = a decade?) and are we supposed to believe that from 1945-1990, Third Reich stuff just lay around in old shops in the DDR, waiting until 1990 when selected "pickers" could now "investigate" ??

These hawkers of modern bric-a-brac will adapt the story to fit... here is a classic example from the Wittman offerings this week:
Knife N°: 19- This Hitler Youth Knife was probably one of the last pieces made judging by the fact that it is dated 1942.

OK, but when Wittman tries to sell a DJ-diamond-on-scabbard fake (red or green diamond) then all of a sudden 1942 will change to a "possible" late 1944, or early 1945....

So when the messenger of truth, or the person bringing a few documented facts to the table, proves these brick-a-brac-peddlers stories to be invented, it is history that is in direct conflict with what the peddler of dubious wares is saying; and not the person sharing the info. Yet the nature of the game today, with most Big Wigs being buddy-buddy and enjoying a parasitic relationship - calls "slander" and "abuse" - it is only because they are having their pants pulled down in public. To believe that someone like Wittman, who has written so many dagger books, and handled so many daggers, has simply made a mistake with one or two descriptions, leads to two possible scenarios only:

The first being that indeed the mistakes he (and them) make, can be attributed to honest mistakes - meaning that 40 years later, they (or he) dont actually know as much as they are pretending to, and have been winging it for all these years... or..
The second is that they know exactly what they are doing, and have been using their reputation for all this time to assist in the selling and automatic authentication of fakes and fantasy knives and daggers, disregarding history for profit.

For many people, what Wittman says, is enough to close the wildest debate. Craig Gottliebs Fantasy SA-Birdshead dagger(s) are great evidence of this, when Gottlieb ran away from the WAF thread, the thread that proved his dagger a fantasy Atwood invention - after lying about it, and using only the following in his, and it`s defense... "Oh well, Wittmann and Johnson think its real, and Wittman is including it in his new dagger book."

No need to elaborate on that, it`s clear enough.... "Wittmann says its OK, so Shut up, that settles any debate, or what you, history or common sense says." .... and anyone who disagrees is a hater? :biggrin1:

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Whitm--n , Go--lieb and there "ELITIST" brotherhood of arrogant so called " good ol boys" club , have been covering each others backs for such a long time now that they have convienced themselves that they are untouchable .They have even taken to heart the first sentence from the famous Quote from Joseph Goebbles " If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it , people will eventually come to believe it " .Why these bigwigs do this is for control of the market , thus those who do not educate themselves become slaves to the masters... wich brings me to Goebbles last sentece to his famous quote ..." It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Case in point Mr. Gottliebs responce to his GOLDEN HJ Leaders buckle in June of 2011 on this forum .
"I am frankly quite surprised to see a moderator of such a good forum repeating baseless "internet" rumor and innuendo".

Unchallenged Lies begets Control , then begets Arrogance wich breeds PROFIT from blind ingnorance of the uneducated .
 
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another reason why I like this forum. Straight-talking backed up by facts. Refreshing to see it happening and that some people still have the energy and the b***s to speak up, something not always seen on other forums.
 
I hardly do have knowledge about daggers (of any kind), but I have some knowledge about uniform-regulations.
I will check some of my information and make a sequence of what information I have found about the HJ dagger
and post it tomorrow.
As Garry says: October 7, 1933 it was said: "a few months ago". In that he is correct for 100%!
 
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