Wittmann attempts to reinvent the history of the Hitler Youth Knife

As mentioned I would make a sort of sequence.

Early 1933 uniform-booklets and color plates do not mention or show HJ daggers of any kind in wear.
This is for 100% sure! One of the first booklets, showing a dagger is "Uniformen der HJ", isued in 1933. It
was based upon uniforms and insignia, which were introduced and came into being after the July 1933 re-organization.
Here the dagger is shown with the "head" as we all know.

For a meeting for DJ leaders in April 1933 with the dress to be worn, no dagger was included. For a special meeting for
the NSDAP Party Day on August 31, 1933 it was announced that with the dress to be worn leaders had to wear the
"amtliches Fahrtenmesser der RJF" (the type as shown in the earlier mentioned booklet). This was also ordered for
DJ leaders.
A few weeks earlier, on August 10, the dagger was mentioned in relation with the summer dress (as ordered for Nürnberg),
to be worn with the brown SA-belt (the HJ buckle was at that moment not yet available). With another order from the same
day it was said: "alle Gliederungen der HJ tragen nach Möglichkeit geschlossen und einheitlich das Fahrtenmesser
der HJ. Andere als die amtlichen Fahrtenmesser der RJF sind nicht zugelassen
. In short: other types of daggers
were not allowed to be worn.

It is obvious that the HJ daggers were a fact anyway in August, but simultaneously it is possible indeed other daggers (note being
he HJ version) may have been used un-authorized. In my opinion they were not the regular HJ type. The official dagger may have
come into being during the course of July. The only thing what could happen is that some manufacturers quickly did manufacturer
a dagger which was not quite the model as for the HJ, but this hardly could be done earlier then early July. Available price-lists from
April 1933 for youth-organizations do not show the regular HJ dagger, that's for sure!

Another fact is that in the "Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung" from August 15, 1933 NO daggers for any of the NSDAP organizations
were included and listed as "zur Herstellung parteiamtliche Ausrüstungsstücke". I guess that during a short period of a developing
stage, maybe early July, the one or the other manufacturer may have made a quantity of experimental daggers. They surely will have
been rejected as in August they already do mention the official dagger from the RJF, the amtliches Fahrtenmesser der Reichsjugendführung!
 
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Many thanks for checking your resources Wim. Yes, as you say, the earliest mention of the Fahrtenmesser in the Verordnungsblätter is the 10th of Aug 1933 where they are talking about groups travelling to the 1933 RPT. I've got part one of Remold's "Handbuch für die Hitler-Jugend" here which has some nice plates showing HJ performing drill movements and of course no knives are being worn. The foreword is dated the 14th of May 1933 which narrows the window for the introduction of the Fahrtenmesser to between then and the 10th of August but I would agree with you that we are most probably looking at July for the actual introduction.

Incidentally, the knife I mentioned over on the E. Pack knives thread was dismantled by its owner. This revealed the diamond to be an early Hoffstätter and as you know, he was the only manufacturer authorised to make them in the beginning. Might be useful if we could nail the introduction date of the diamond in order to better date the E. Pack knives.

As I mentioned on another thread, I know that I've seen a picture showing Hitler and Schirach where Hitler is looking at an example of the Fahrtenmesser (it was the standard version). As I remember, the picture was taken on the occasion of the introduction so that will of course give us the exact date. I didn't save the picture so this could mean that I saw it in one of my books. I'll try to find it.
 
Just to confirm: There is no written evidence and no pre 1933 photo showing a member of the Bündische Jugend and especially the Pfadfinder (Boy Scouts) to wear a Fahrtenmesser that did look anything like the HJ Fahrtenmesser. All HJ-shaped Pfadfinder knives with the well known fleur-de-lis (Lilie) in any kind of material or colour have been manufactured after 1945. The manufacturers have simply replaced the diamond with the fleur-de-lis and kept the HJ-design.
And as you all have: I have heard all kinds of stories from dealers:h:pound:. But nobody ever has had any proof.
 
This revealed the diamond to be an early Hoffstätter and as you know, he was the only manufacturer authorised to make them in the beginning.
Yes, but we know others were producing them as well at this time, just the same as Baudermann was supposed to be the only maker of the 1st pattern HJ badge, but others (like Assmann) made then when they were not supposed to.
 
That's right. What I was getting at with that comment was that both the badge and the knife appear to be from the same period. Would have looked suspicious if the badge had been a later M1/ type as opposed to that early Hoffstätter.
 
Just to confirm: There is no written evidence and no pre 1933 photo showing a member of the Bündische Jugend and especially the Pfadfinder (Boy Scouts) to wear a Fahrtenmesser that did look anything like the HJ Fahrtenmesser. All HJ-shaped Pfadfinder knives with the well known fleur-de-lis (Lilie) in any kind of material or colour have been manufactured after 1945. The manufacturers have simply replaced the diamond with the fleur-de-lis and kept the HJ-design.
And as you all have: I have heard all kinds of stories from dealers:h:pound:. But nobody ever has had any proof.

Thanks Christian. I've found a couple of those fleur-de-lis badges whilst out with the detector actually. Clearly the glue they used was crap.
 
That's right. What I was getting at with that comment was that both the badge and the knife appear to be from the same period. Would have looked suspicious if the badge had been a later M1/ type as opposed to that early Hoffstätter.
or said OTTO HOFFMANN :swiss
 
Hi Guys,

I am sorry to ask and look stupid (*). I am lost at this point and would like to get things clear.

There is NO confirmation, Foto, Document, SOMETHING, that confirms that the knife existed in 1932. Is that correct? The only thing that we have is :

Vendors or Seller or Shops with knives that have early marks, but there is no explanation about them, right?

Also, is there any reason why suddenly it was decided that the HJ has a Fahrtenmesser? There was a background why that was decided?

To be honest, I guess there should be something in pictures or written that confirms that the knife existed. If there is nothing, then... I don't know, I guess experience is great, but it is not much better the regulations, history and documents? I am wasting my life trying to read the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM vom 1934 und 1935?

Once again, my apologies for these (stupid?) questions. But, what explanations do we have for this type of knife? There is another Thread with this "early" type of knife.

Thanks anyway.

Best Regards

Antonio

(*) Yes, I know that it is much better to shut up and look stupid than to speak and confirm to the world that you are even more stupid.
 
Hi Antonio.
Earlier photos do sometimes show young kids wearing bayo`s and home made, or self bought odd knives and the like, but the HJ/DJ Fahrtenmesser as we know it (with the new HJ diamond in the grip) dates from 1933, and not from very early 1933 either. There was also no change for "who" it was for, it remained the HJ/DJ Fahrtenmesser from 1933 to 1945. It is very simple actually, but as soon as people with "expirience" but no actual knowledge get together, and throw a few "What if`s.." and "Could be`s" around the room, a new knife is born. As we have seen with the multitude of fantasy knives, i:e: the fantasy DJ knives, BDM knives, Olympic, Reichsparteitage, HJ-Forestry knife... etc etc.. the list is very long. btw, will eMail you later today about something :swiss
 
Yep, in essence that's the story. The proof (the orders and regulations) show us quite clearly that the "Fahrtenmesser der Hitler-Jugend und des Deutschen Jungvolks" was introduced in mid-1933. There is and can be no argument on that. That is the official introduction year. We know that a variety of knives was worn in the years prior to the introduction of the HJ/DJ knife and indeed after the introduction. Photographs showing this are around but even if they weren't, we would still know about the knives because the RJF tells us about them. There are repeated mentions in the regulations and orders about the wearing of non-regulation knives and so it is crystal-clear that the Fahrtenmesser was the only knife permitted for wear by the HJ and DJ after its introduction in mid-1933.

The period leading up to that is the most interesting in my opinion. Was the design of the knife a brand new design? Or was it adapted from a knife that the HJ boys were already wearing? As Christian said in another thread, there is no evidence that a knife resembling the standard HJ/DJ knife shape was worn by one of the pre-HJ youth organisations so this would act as solid circumstantial evidence for the design being brand-new when it was introduced. However, we have those odd-looking E. Pack u. Söhne HJ knives that apparently co-existed with the standard shape. The period between 1931 and 1933 will contain the answers in my opinion and will go a long way to removing the fog so loved by those looking to exploit it.
 
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