MARINE HJ blouse controversy SOLVED !

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Joe B

Joe B

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For many of us , including myself ; there has been a debate conserning the Regulation HJ blouse for Marine HJ.

I have found a photo that clearly shows the cut of the Marine HJ pullover blouse for enlisted ranks .
If you look closely , you will see that it is not the same cut as the Kreigsmarine blue wool jumper blouse .

Look at the inner flapless breast pockets on both sides across this boys chest . These are secured by a single button .

In later years mid 1943 to 45 , problibly anything Kreigsmarine was permitted . However if you wanted to know what a REGULATION HJ Marine blouse looks like ... now you know .:thumb:

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Hi Joe,

... if somebody would have asked me ... I have the same blouse on a about 2 dozens photos. BUT what I would like to know: what is the collar (Kieler Kragen) like on such blouse - as we all know it didn't come together with the blouse but was an indipendent, loose, item. There are collectors which are unsure how the two corners on the back are looking like: sharp or rounded?

I have about 250 different photos and I never could find it out since all the boys a photographed from the front side. May I ask you guys to have a look, please?

joecool said:
For many of us , including myself ; there has been a debate conserning the Regulation HJ blouse for Marine HJ.

I have found a photo that clearly shows the cut of the Marine HJ pullover blouse for enlisted ranks .
If you look closely , you will see that it is not the same cut as the Kreigsmarine blue wool jumper blouse .

Look at the inner flapless breast pockets on both sides across this boys chest . These are secured by a single button .

In later years mid 1943 to 45 , problibly anything Kreigsmarine was permitted . However if you wanted to know what a REGULATION HJ Marine blouse looks like ... now you know .:thumb:
Click to expand...
 
In my handbook I showed the colored plate from "Marine-Hitler-Jugend im Dienst" from March 1942.
One of the guys is shown from the back. The drawing shows somewhat rounded corners. But it is a
drawing and artist's can make mistakes. The rounded corner however is also visible upon page 380,
where you can see the corner is rounded from the guy in the foreground at right. The corner is not
having sharp edges!
 
Hello,

Many years ago, I sold a collar (Kieler Kragen) with HJ tag and rounded corners.

Best regards
 
Bonjour mon ami,

you are correct about the rounded corners.
In the first addendum for the manufacturing-regulations (Herstellungsvorschriften) from the
RZM, issued in 1936 on page 208 drawings from the front and reverse for the "Hemdentragen
der Marine-HJ" are shown. Specifically how the corners had to look like was shown and noted:
round, phrased as "stark abgerundeten Ecken". The width for the collar had to be about 21.0 cm.
 
Hello Wim,

It's a great chance for us that you take time to share your knowledge !

Best regards
 
This one was sold last year

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No doubt the collar had rounded corners as per the regulations. The attached photo of two MHJ members shows the rounded corners. I cannot attach the complete photo since the owner will not give me permission to do so, but this part of the photo is enough I think.

That does not mean, IMO, that all collars were rounded since I think it is possible some boys wore what they were given and those might have been KM, but officially, the rounded collar seems to be what regulations called for.

John

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marine hj working shirt

I have a question about the working shirt. I know the regulations called for certain styles, at least up to the date of this regulation. However, in photos, we see a style very similar to the KM.

Does anybody know if these twill working shirts had the RZM tag? I know the trousers did, but I cannot find any shirt that does have it. The attached shirt is purported to be MHJ, but I am not sure. There are no tags, just some unreadable letters on the back of the collar. No other stamps.

What is your opinion? It comes with the trousers that does have the RZM tag, but there is no way to ascertain if the shirt was added later. In other words, a KM shirt to a MHJ trouser.

The armband is probably a postwar print fake. It glows brightly on the threads and dull glow for the rest of the armband.

In any case, note the double buttons on the sleeve. Not sure if this was how a KM working blouse was made. I thought they had only one button.

Thanks, John

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Last edited:
This is the regulation for the early style blouse. Since the KM did not wear this, if you found one like it, with or without a tag, it is MHJ.

John

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And a KM work shirt from my collection. This came from Prinz Eugen. Ignore the post war rank stripes, it was used only for the trip over to the United States with the combined crew.

John

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And another KM work shirt for sale. Identical to the MHJ shirts in most photos. So the question remains, did the MHJ shirt have a RZM tag?

John

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Hi John, I can't answer the question about the RZM tag, but I have seen that set with the printed armband on a couple of forums. I don't have good feelings about it personally. I don't know uniforms very well so I may be way off base but it just seems incorrect to me. What does Dani Falk say about this set?
 
Gefolgschaft said:
Hi John, I can't answer the question about the RZM tag, but I have seen that set with the printed armband on a couple of forums. I don't have good feelings about it personally. I don't know uniforms very well so I may be way off base but it just seems incorrect to me. What does Dani Falk say about this set?
Click to expand...

Not able to get in contact with him right now. Usually, his opinion is that if an item does not have a RZM to take a pass. I am not sure that I feel so strongly in that if an item is clearly HJ, tag or no tag, it is good. The tag could have fallen off I guess. In this case, no evidence of a tag though.
 
There was a particular problem with the Marine-HJ uniform which helps to understand these differences (also the differences with the Kieler Kragen). The early Marine-HJ uniforms were very similar to those used by the KM and large quantities of KM pattern uniforms ('Kieler Knabenkonfektion') were manufactured and sold to Marine-HJ members despite the fact that... (continued below):

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beitzen7 said:
... There are no tags, just some unreadable letters on the back of the collar. No other stamps.

What is your opinion? It comes with the trousers that does have the RZM tag, but there is no way to ascertain if the shirt was added later. In other words, a KM shirt to a MHJ trouser.

The armband is probably a postwar print fake. It glows brightly on the threads and dull glow for the rest of the armband.

In any case, note the double buttons on the sleeve. Not sure if this was how a KM working blouse was made. I thought they had only one button.
...
Click to expand...

Good day Gents,

first I would like to thanks especially Wim, John and Lauri for the contributions to this thread and thanks for answering my question about the MHJ collar.

The AHS uniform is not the first I have seen where only one piece bears the presumably correct RZM tags. So let's think about the shirt for a wee moment: while the trousers are correct in every aspect, the shirt has neither a stamp, nor a tag nor a correct armband? That's quite weird if you ask me.
However, as I said this is not the first AHS twill uniform I have seen in this combination of non tag/ with tag . Since nothing is going cheap these days, so neither the AHS uniform I guess, I would certainly keep my fingers off. Also, let's put it this way: you might think in April 1937 (when the first course in Crössinsee started) the RZM got hold of such a prestigious object like the AHS. And all later course wore for sure a RZM issued uniform. Also, why should a student (probably proud to be in such school like a king after coronation) jeopardise the bit of peace with his instructors by wearing a non-RZM uniform with a printed HJ armband? Sounds all very strange to me, i.m.o.! I mean if there would be a decent HJ armband on there and no AHS stamp in the trousers, I would have said that this is a white work uniform from a Reichs- or Gebietsseesportschule. This is probably what it actually is: a shirt of such Seesportschule. And since the seller didn't know what it was since all HJ related insignia removed and was told the trousers belong to the HJ, he added the first best armband he found and off it went to the dealer as AHS uniform. Well, lots of "maybe" and "perhaps" we will never uncover waht way this uniform went. One is for sure: I won't buy it!

On the other hand I would like to take the opportunity to make a statement to John's post #16: well, if you know by feeling, knowledge or circumstance which lead to the purchase of a non-RZM item, just go ahead and buy it. However, if it comes to the moment to sell this particualr item again, please don't expect the same money back or even a profit on it, because a time will come where potential buyers won't show interest at all when the item has no RZM tag: the ratio of fakes/originals is increasing and the number of knowledgable collectors over the decades decreasing. So uncertainty will spread and the few which will be willing to invest that serious money in a cap, tunic, you name it (keep in mind that the prices just shot through the roof compared to 10 years ago - how will it go on?) will play the cards very safe! Now they have even started to fake RZM tags ... well realising the fact that an article will sell better!

Rgds and please forgive that it took me that long to particiapte in this thread again!

Daniel
 
Hemdenkragen der Marine-HJ

lauri said:
This one was sold last year
Click to expand...

Exactly the same. Sold by Kpemig now.

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